I think both systems are excellent ideas and quite practical for the everyday screen printer ... I actually like the idea of most screen print shops using these over stretch/glue static frames -and- in certain cases even doing away with the retention able frames all together :-))
Dont you think the retensionables at the much higher levels are need in some cases?
Panelframe was having trouble with Chinese panels, has this been resolved. Robert have you used these in production?
We have been using them since April and little by little we have been replacing our statics with them. We found in the long run its cheaper to purchase the panel frames then to send statics out to be meshed. We also have been stocking up on the mesh for the frames, if you do have a defective screen it can be changed in about a minute. The screens hold good tension for a while but not as well as a roller but again the panels are easy to change and inexpensive.
I have heard of problems with them in the beginning but we have not had any issues.
We have been using them since April and little by little we have been replacing our statics with them. We found in the long run its cheaper to purchase the panel frames then to send statics out to be meshed. We also have been stocking up on the mesh for the frames, if you do have a defective screen it can be changed in about a minute. The screens hold good tension for a while but not as well as a roller but again the panels are easy to change and inexpensive.
I have heard of problems with them in the beginning but we have not had any issues.
These make sense for several reasons. The drawback is that you cannot work harden the mesh which rules these out for many. Early on they were using a Murakami mesh which, by all accounts, lost tension rapidly. They have since switched to Sefar. I am bringing in six frames to test. For the static frame folks it appears these are cheaper than sending frames out to re-mesh especially after the freight back and forth.
We have been using them since April and little by little we have been replacing our statics with them. We found in the long run its cheaper to purchase the panel frames then to send statics out to be meshed. We also have been stocking up on the mesh for the frames, if you do have a defective screen it can be changed in about a minute. The screens hold good tension for a while but not as well as a roller but again the panels are easy to change and inexpensive.
I have heard of problems with them in the beginning but we have not had any issues.
We have been using them for quite a while now. I cannot say they are perfect but they do replace statics well. The issues I have had are inconsistent tension loss, some panels will not engage and essentially are useless, the mesh tends to rip (small rips) at the edges on almost all of them. Some frames are not perfectly flat. I have two that the locking strip is coming out of the channel.
All minor things I guess but what I gather is they will not last as long as a well kept static and will need remeshing more often. Up side you can do it in house in minutes and mesh count you want.
I bought 3 and six panels but they were from the first batch and the chinese made mesh panels. Supposedly, the panels are made with Sefar mesh now so most of the issues I had with them should be gone. Now, I've heard from several different customers that the tension levels are "decent", in the 20's but nobody has really been very specific with their tension levels on very used frames. I think this product could be lethal and one of the best ever if used with the right mesh. For example, I think if you used Murakami Smartmesh with the S threads that don't need high tension to work great then the panel frames would be a terrific product considering price in the equation. If you use the saati and sefar standard mesh, they will relax and lose too much tension over the first few rounds through production and they'd probably be too low in tension when they finally got to a stable tension level. The reason I think the smartmesh would work great with the panel frames is they don't relax as much as the other mesh that I've used. They remain much closer to the initial tension level that they were stretched to. And they also don't need the high tension levels to keep their mesh openings close to optimum specs so printing through them is super easy to do, even at 22 newtons.
So I think under the current conditions, they are a slightly better option than static aluminums that aren't using Murakami Smartmesh but nowhere near as good as shurloc ez frames or newman rollers. I think a properly stretched static aluminum using smartmesh s thread would be better than a panel frame with sefar or saati standard mesh. In case you can't tell, I really like the Murakami Smartmesh, specifically the S threads.
Well everything I said in my post is opposite of Tony's evaluation! I've had much better results using Murakami over Sefar and Saati, and the Newman Roller mesh is a close second to Murakami.
Tony, where did you here they were using Murakami in the initial mesh panels? I've looked at the mesh up close through microscope and they aren't any murakami that I've seen. They are the worst looking things I've ever seen. They don't look or feel like any other mesh I've used. Plus the Murakami I've used recently, the smartmesh s threads hold their tension much better than the sefar and saati I am using right beside it. The sefar on a newman roller is loosing 5 newtons after the first run and continue to do so until the 4th or 5th run through production, and the Murakami is literally half that, and stabilized by the 2nd or 3rd run.
Well everything I said in my post is opposite of Tony's evaluation! I've had much better results using Murakami over Sefar and Saati, and the Newman Roller mesh is a close second to Murakami.
Tony, where did you here they were using Murakami in the initial mesh panels? I've looked at the mesh up close through microscope and they aren't any murakami that I've seen. They are the worst looking things I've ever seen. They don't look or feel like any other mesh I've used. Plus the Murakami I've used recently, the smartmesh s threads hold their tension much better than the sefar and saati I am using right beside it. The sefar on a newman roller is loosing 5 newtons after the first run and continue to do so until the 4th or 5th run through production, and the Murakami is literally half that, and stabilized by the 2nd or 3rd run.
Actually I haven't laid hands one one yet so it's not an eval.....I was just getting ready to build a stretching table but want to play with these first. The mesh info came directly from Nazdar. I suppose they could be wrong.
Actually I haven't laid hands one one yet so it's not an eval.....I was just getting ready to build a stretching table but want to play with these first. The mesh info came directly from Nazdar. I suppose they could be wrong.
Tony: Not sure who at Nazdar stated that the initial mesh used on the Panel Frames came from Murakami. Alan is 100% correct that it was a Chinese sourced product that has since been replaced with Sefar mesh.
Peter G. Walsh
Vice President & General Manager
Nazdar SourceOne Shawnee Kansas
913-422-1888 x2020 - 913-579-6662 (cell)pwalsh@nazdar.com - SourceOneOnline.com
“The postings on this site are my own and do not necessarily represent the positions, strategies or opinions of the Nazdar or Thrall Companies.”
I bought 16 23"x31" last October and won't get anything else. Not one failure from the panels or mesh and the tension is within 2 to 3 points of the beginning numbers of 28 to 30 on the newton meter
Tony: Not sure who at Nazdar stated that the initial mesh used on the Panel Frames came from Murakami. Alan is 100% correct that it was a Chinese sourced product that has since been replaced with Sefar mesh.
Peter it was someone in Tech Service no need to point fingers but thanks for clearing that up.
tp
Peter it was someone in Tech Service no need to point fingers but thanks for clearing that up.
tp
Tony: I'm just glad that it wasn't me that told you!
You know that they say; "A screen-printers memory is the second thing to go" :)
Peter G. Walsh
Vice President & General Manager
Nazdar SourceOne Shawnee Kansas
913-422-1888 x2020 - 913-579-6662 (cell)pwalsh@nazdar.com - SourceOneOnline.com
“The postings on this site are my own and do not necessarily represent the positions, strategies or opinions of the Nazdar or Thrall Companies.”
I have been using them since day one when they came out. The first china mesh did suck but the Sefar mesh they use now works real good. Tensions are good enough for most all work we do and have never had a problem with them due to tension.
Some of the newer mesh panels that are high mesh count can be a little scary when you put them on as you can pop them if you do not have everything just right and the mesh perfectly centered. I think the problem is the corners need to be a little softer. I am actually starting to cut the tension rails down in length and this solves the corner softness issue.
The only other problem I have had is that on some of my older frames the powder coating is turning to mush and I have to scrape it out of the tension rails when I change mesh. I am thinking of stripping all the powder coating off them as they would be 100 times better just being plain or anodized aluminum.
I have been using them since day one when they came out. The first china mesh did suck but the Sefar mesh they use now works real good. Tensions are good enough for most all work we do and have never had a problem with them due to tension.
Some of the newer mesh panels that are high mesh count can be a little scary when you put them on as you can pop them if you do not have everything just right and the mesh perfectly centered. I think the problem is the corners need to be a little softer. I am actually starting to cut the tension rails down in length and this solves the corner softness issue.
The only other problem I have had is that on some of my older frames the powder coating is turning to mush and I have to scrape it out of the tension rails when I change mesh. I am thinking of stripping all the powder coating off them as they would be 100 times better just being plain or anodized aluminum.
How much are you cutting off, and are you cutting both long and short sides?
Thanks
We use roller frames with roller mesh, work hardened at 45n. I couldn't imagine using anything else. Super low off contact, fast prints. Good coverage with not to much ink. Great registration. The example photos below have no choke, no trap. Just butt reg. With QCM plastisol.
Penny is the the photo for scale:
T-Shirt, Sweatshirt, Hoodie Screen Printing in Portland Oregon. inkbrigade.com
We use roller frames with roller mesh, work hardened at 45n. I couldn't imagine using anything else. Super low off contact, fast prints. Good coverage with not to much ink. Great registration. The example photos below have no choke, no trap. Just butt reg.
This was done using EZ frames with 150s mesh and 300t, 24-29N, so anyway it's not always necessary to have mega tension to make sharp, bright prints. Newman over emphasizes tension IMHO, it is like their propaganda.
This was done using EZ frames with 150s mesh and 300t, 24-29N, so anyway it's not always necessary to have mega tension to make sharp, bright prints. Newman over emphasizes tension IMHO, it is like their propaganda.
I agree to a point but let's not get into a tension/frame type war. I can say that the "higher tension=less ink" is pretty much an urban legend. We tested this out at an eight press two shift shop over a period of six months and de-bunked it. Water based inks are less dependant on higher tension. That said I see the biggest advantage of the higher tensions above say 35n is for single hit underbases and high density prints. Large areas of high density ink coverage can "fall" towards the center of the graphic when printed through lower tensioned mesh.
tp
I agree to a point but let's not get into a tension/frame type war. I can say that the "higher tension=less ink" is pretty much an urban legend. We tested this out at an eight press two shift shop over a period of six months and de-bunked it. Water based inks are less dependant on higher tension. That said I see the biggest advantage of the higher tensions above say 35n is for single hit underbases and high density prints. Large areas of high density ink coverage can "fall" towards the center of the graphic when printed through lower tensioned mesh.
tp
Not trying to start a frame war, just saying that there is a time and place for high tension as you said, just making a counter opinion to the idea that high tension=best, I think "proper tension" is the idea I was trying to get across, need more coffee.
HD printing is new to me, but I am actually doing a print today on mesh that's at about 45-50N and am hopeful the tension will lend to better results than previous attempts.
Agreed. I think it might be John or Alan that tries to ensure all frames are tensioned equally for each job. Admirable but I don't have the time and can't see the payoff. Our presses run wide open so I don't see a speed advantage. I apologize if I got your names wrong guys. Anyway.....time and a place. proper tension? Seems sensible to me.
Submitted by Printwizard on Tue, 07/26/2011 - 06:45
How much more expensive are these frames? We only use old school rectangular frames that need remeshing, can't re tension. We have about 5,000 frames and had been moving away from wood to Aluminium. We do a lot of repeats so keep a lot up. I would like to move more toward continual reclaiming and being able to retention though, but haven't seen any of these frames sold here so will be a case of importing them.
I'm not the one who wants all the particular screens for the same job to be the same tension. I'm all about matching a particular mesh count's tension level to the manufacturers recommended level. I'm also backing off my previous thoughts of the higher the tension the better, but just a little bit. I still think printing plastisol through a 156 at 45 newtons is better than printing the same ink and image through a 156 at 25 newtons, but I'm more concerned with mesh opening, thread thickness, stencil thickness, theoretical ink volume along with the manufacturers recommended tension level. I'll never back off the idea that two screens and everything being the same that printing through the higher tension will yield better results across the board of parameters, up to a point. I don't think you'll benefit greatly from printing through an 80 newton screen versus a 50, but the differences between 20 newtons and 40 newtons will make all the difference. Whatever mesh specs that will help me print a very thin, opaque layer directly on top of the shirt instead of in it is the most important thing. If I can accomplish that with a 150/48 Murakami smartmesh s thread at 25 newtons better than I can with a 156/64 sefar at 48 newtons, then I'm gonna use the Murakami.
I can't begin to remember how many times I've heard a supplier say, or someone on a forum talk about keeping all their mesh at the same tension level in one job. I remember more than one story about how registration is faster, printing is faster, I've even been told you can't hold registration unless your screens are all within a few N of each other.
But we all know that a 305 to a 230 to a 110 at manu's specs are not the same in tension, so how could one do a job if mixing meshes then?
It's a case of over simplification, you just can't run the same mesh in every screen on every job, nor can you hold exactly 35 N or whatever on every mesh if you mix up different meshes. Definately an urban legend in my book.
Submitted by musterdbom on Wed, 08/10/2011 - 11:17
My PanelFrame kit from One Stroke should be here today with a 6 pack of 180 mesh. What kind of tension levels are you guys getting with the newer batch of meshes?
Submitted by middletownink on Wed, 08/10/2011 - 11:50
We have been seeing at least high thirty's. Don't be afraid of the loud "snap" the first time.
You're getting high 30's on what mesh counts? Is that first stretched? Our shurloc ez's start that high and in the 40's on some mesh counts but they relax down to the mid to low 30's. I'm very surprised at those tension levels being had with the panel frames.
Submitted by musterdbom on Wed, 08/10/2011 - 21:17
Put all four frames together. One Stroke sent 230 mesh instead of 180, it is sefar though. Tightened them down and measured and I'm getting 20-22 newtons on all four frames, bleh. Should I print with them a few times then attempt a double roll on a short side?
Overall, quality looks nice, still tighter than my statics but I was hoping for a bit higher out of the gate.
Put all four frames together. One Stroke sent 230 mesh instead of 180, it is sefar though. Tightened them down and measured and I'm getting 20-22 newtons on all four frames, bleh. Should I print with them a few times then attempt a double roll on a short side?
Overall, quality looks nice, still tighter than my statics but I was hoping for a bit higher out of the gate.
I certainly don't want to not believe Brian and his tension numbers, but I have heard from several others who are using them and they weren't getting anywhere near the 30 newton range with theirs. 230's first stretched and they are 20-22 means that they'll be 15 newtons in a few weeks after a couple uses. I think you'll have no choice but to try double rolling them to get anywhere near the tension a 230 needs to print correctly.
I certainly don't want to not believe Brian and his tension numbers, but I have heard from several others who are using them and they weren't getting anywhere near the 30 newton range with theirs. 230's first stretched and they are 20-22 means that they'll be 15 newtons in a few weeks after a couple uses. I think you'll have no choice but to try double rolling them to get anywhere near the tension a 230 needs to print correctly.
You got me thinking last night so I pulled some screens out this morning and here is what I had. We have the green frames and using Sefar mesh 160, it actually has green written in the corner of the mesh. I assume that means it is for the green frames.
I had 3 screens not coated yet and put the meter on those. All three we have had since June and have been printed and reclaimed several times. One was 22, next was 15 and last was 18.
I popped two new panels in a frame. One was 36 and the other 35.
Maybe my high thirties was an exaggeration but still happy with the numbers we have. Rarely do I check tension unless we are running a job that requires it and most of those jobs I use roller frames or use new panels.
To replace statics I think the panel frames are great and the price of the mesh panels makes them a cost effective alternative. But I don't think they will ever replace roller frames for high mesh tension. Like I said in the past we went to them because of cost and no one else in my shop can remesh the rollers. So if i'm out of town and they need tight screens they have to wait for me to do them or they can pop new panels in.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Submitted by musterdbom on Thu, 08/11/2011 - 11:17
I'm going to test them again today after letting them rest overnight. We'll see what they're at, then I may try an idea that is marinating in my brain to get a little more tension without a double roll.
Submitted by musterdbom on Thu, 08/11/2011 - 15:00
Checked one frame again just now, 17 in one direction and 16 in the other.
So I decided to try the thing in my head! I have a roll of 2mm air tube here, cut a piece for the length of the short side, wrapped it inside the first roll butting it up against the stitching and plastic strip then rolling the mesh to hold it in. Retensioned and went from 16 to 20 in the long direction. Cut a strip of tubing for one of the long sides and retensioned and back up to 22.
Going to let it rest and see if the tension drops. May try adding the tubing to all 4 sides to see what happens!
Submitted by musterdbom on Thu, 08/11/2011 - 18:16
I've been trying to document all of my stretching and tension levels, before, during and after every stretch, with every different brand and type of mesh. I hope to have some really good info to share one of these days in the form of an excel spreadsheet and charts, graphs, tired head crap to get people to sleep. I've got numbers written down in my notepad and I just need to put it in a form that people besides me can gain something out of.
There is new development regarding Panel Frames.
Panel Frames has been bought off by Shurloc and they will continues manufacturing them in hose, at same price. Like that all the problems that Panel Frames had in the past should be ironed out.
You can read more about latest development in this tread
Re: PANELFrame system
Now this is a productive post ... Spiderman thinks that both the panel frames and the Shur-Loc are much better than stretch/glue static frames :-))
Re: PANELFrame system
Please STOP stalking me Robert, but if you want to participate in the thread, then answer what you like and dislike?
Re: PANELFrame system
I think both systems are excellent ideas and quite practical for the everyday screen printer ... I actually like the idea of most screen print shops using these over stretch/glue static frames -and- in certain cases even doing away with the retention able frames all together :-))
Re: PANELFrame system
Dont you think the retensionables at the much higher levels are need in some cases?
Panelframe was having trouble with Chinese panels, has this been resolved. Robert have you used these in production?
Re: PANELFrame system
We have been using them since April and little by little we have been replacing our statics with them. We found in the long run its cheaper to purchase the panel frames then to send statics out to be meshed. We also have been stocking up on the mesh for the frames, if you do have a defective screen it can be changed in about a minute. The screens hold good tension for a while but not as well as a roller but again the panels are easy to change and inexpensive.
I have heard of problems with them in the beginning but we have not had any issues.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Re: PANELFrame system
Nice post Brian :-))
Re: PANELFrame system
These make sense for several reasons. The drawback is that you cannot work harden the mesh which rules these out for many. Early on they were using a Murakami mesh which, by all accounts, lost tension rapidly. They have since switched to Sefar. I am bringing in six frames to test. For the static frame folks it appears these are cheaper than sending frames out to re-mesh especially after the freight back and forth.
Re: PANELFrame system
Thanks, where do you get yours from?
Re: PANELFrame system
One Stroke, we have been buying starter kits. Four frames, six mesh of the same size your choice and the tool.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Re: PANELFrame system
We have been using them for quite a while now. I cannot say they are perfect but they do replace statics well. The issues I have had are inconsistent tension loss, some panels will not engage and essentially are useless, the mesh tends to rip (small rips) at the edges on almost all of them. Some frames are not perfectly flat. I have two that the locking strip is coming out of the channel.
All minor things I guess but what I gather is they will not last as long as a well kept static and will need remeshing more often. Up side you can do it in house in minutes and mesh count you want.
Re: PANELFrame system
I bought 3 and six panels but they were from the first batch and the chinese made mesh panels. Supposedly, the panels are made with Sefar mesh now so most of the issues I had with them should be gone. Now, I've heard from several different customers that the tension levels are "decent", in the 20's but nobody has really been very specific with their tension levels on very used frames. I think this product could be lethal and one of the best ever if used with the right mesh. For example, I think if you used Murakami Smartmesh with the S threads that don't need high tension to work great then the panel frames would be a terrific product considering price in the equation. If you use the saati and sefar standard mesh, they will relax and lose too much tension over the first few rounds through production and they'd probably be too low in tension when they finally got to a stable tension level. The reason I think the smartmesh would work great with the panel frames is they don't relax as much as the other mesh that I've used. They remain much closer to the initial tension level that they were stretched to. And they also don't need the high tension levels to keep their mesh openings close to optimum specs so printing through them is super easy to do, even at 22 newtons.
So I think under the current conditions, they are a slightly better option than static aluminums that aren't using Murakami Smartmesh but nowhere near as good as shurloc ez frames or newman rollers. I think a properly stretched static aluminum using smartmesh s thread would be better than a panel frame with sefar or saati standard mesh. In case you can't tell, I really like the Murakami Smartmesh, specifically the S threads.
Re: PANELFrame system
Well everything I said in my post is opposite of Tony's evaluation! I've had much better results using Murakami over Sefar and Saati, and the Newman Roller mesh is a close second to Murakami.
Tony, where did you here they were using Murakami in the initial mesh panels? I've looked at the mesh up close through microscope and they aren't any murakami that I've seen. They are the worst looking things I've ever seen. They don't look or feel like any other mesh I've used. Plus the Murakami I've used recently, the smartmesh s threads hold their tension much better than the sefar and saati I am using right beside it. The sefar on a newman roller is loosing 5 newtons after the first run and continue to do so until the 4th or 5th run through production, and the Murakami is literally half that, and stabilized by the 2nd or 3rd run.
Re: PANELFrame system
Actually I haven't laid hands one one yet so it's not an eval.....I was just getting ready to build a stretching table but want to play with these first. The mesh info came directly from Nazdar. I suppose they could be wrong.
Re: PANELFrame system
Tony: Not sure who at Nazdar stated that the initial mesh used on the Panel Frames came from Murakami. Alan is 100% correct that it was a Chinese sourced product that has since been replaced with Sefar mesh.
Peter G. Walsh
Vice President & General Manager
Nazdar SourceOne Shawnee Kansas
913-422-1888 x2020 - 913-579-6662 (cell)pwalsh@nazdar.com - SourceOneOnline.com
“The postings on this site are my own and do not necessarily represent the positions, strategies or opinions of the Nazdar or Thrall Companies.”
Re: PANELFrame system
I bought 16 23"x31" last October and won't get anything else. Not one failure from the panels or mesh and the tension is within 2 to 3 points of the beginning numbers of 28 to 30 on the newton meter
Re: PANELFrame system
Peter it was someone in Tech Service no need to point fingers but thanks for clearing that up.
tp
Re: PANELFrame system
Tony: I'm just glad that it wasn't me that told you!
You know that they say; "A screen-printers memory is the second thing to go" :)
Peter G. Walsh
Vice President & General Manager
Nazdar SourceOne Shawnee Kansas
913-422-1888 x2020 - 913-579-6662 (cell)pwalsh@nazdar.com - SourceOneOnline.com
“The postings on this site are my own and do not necessarily represent the positions, strategies or opinions of the Nazdar or Thrall Companies.”
Re: PANELFrame system
I have been using them since day one when they came out. The first china mesh did suck but the Sefar mesh they use now works real good. Tensions are good enough for most all work we do and have never had a problem with them due to tension.
Some of the newer mesh panels that are high mesh count can be a little scary when you put them on as you can pop them if you do not have everything just right and the mesh perfectly centered. I think the problem is the corners need to be a little softer. I am actually starting to cut the tension rails down in length and this solves the corner softness issue.
The only other problem I have had is that on some of my older frames the powder coating is turning to mush and I have to scrape it out of the tension rails when I change mesh. I am thinking of stripping all the powder coating off them as they would be 100 times better just being plain or anodized aluminum.
Shop Cal Software
Re: PANELFrame system
How much are you cutting off, and are you cutting both long and short sides?
Thanks
Re: PANELFrame system
Prestom. you say you cut your frame locks down. How much and which ones, Thanks
Re: PANELFrame system
We use roller frames with roller mesh, work hardened at 45n. I couldn't imagine using anything else. Super low off contact, fast prints. Good coverage with not to much ink. Great registration. The example photos below have no choke, no trap. Just butt reg. With QCM plastisol.
Penny is the the photo for scale:
T-Shirt, Sweatshirt, Hoodie Screen Printing in Portland Oregon.
inkbrigade.com
Re: PANELFrame system
This was done using EZ frames with 150s mesh and 300t, 24-29N, so anyway it's not always necessary to have mega tension to make sharp, bright prints. Newman over emphasizes tension IMHO, it is like their propaganda.
Re: PANELFrame system
I agree to a point but let's not get into a tension/frame type war. I can say that the "higher tension=less ink" is pretty much an urban legend. We tested this out at an eight press two shift shop over a period of six months and de-bunked it. Water based inks are less dependant on higher tension. That said I see the biggest advantage of the higher tensions above say 35n is for single hit underbases and high density prints. Large areas of high density ink coverage can "fall" towards the center of the graphic when printed through lower tensioned mesh.
tp
Re: PANELFrame system
Not trying to start a frame war, just saying that there is a time and place for high tension as you said, just making a counter opinion to the idea that high tension=best, I think "proper tension" is the idea I was trying to get across, need more coffee.
HD printing is new to me, but I am actually doing a print today on mesh that's at about 45-50N and am hopeful the tension will lend to better results than previous attempts.
Re: PANELFrame system
Agreed. I think it might be John or Alan that tries to ensure all frames are tensioned equally for each job. Admirable but I don't have the time and can't see the payoff. Our presses run wide open so I don't see a speed advantage. I apologize if I got your names wrong guys. Anyway.....time and a place. proper tension? Seems sensible to me.
Re: PANELFrame system
How much more expensive are these frames? We only use old school rectangular frames that need remeshing, can't re tension. We have about 5,000 frames and had been moving away from wood to Aluminium. We do a lot of repeats so keep a lot up. I would like to move more toward continual reclaiming and being able to retention though, but haven't seen any of these frames sold here so will be a case of importing them.
Re: PANELFrame system
I'm not the one who wants all the particular screens for the same job to be the same tension. I'm all about matching a particular mesh count's tension level to the manufacturers recommended level. I'm also backing off my previous thoughts of the higher the tension the better, but just a little bit. I still think printing plastisol through a 156 at 45 newtons is better than printing the same ink and image through a 156 at 25 newtons, but I'm more concerned with mesh opening, thread thickness, stencil thickness, theoretical ink volume along with the manufacturers recommended tension level. I'll never back off the idea that two screens and everything being the same that printing through the higher tension will yield better results across the board of parameters, up to a point. I don't think you'll benefit greatly from printing through an 80 newton screen versus a 50, but the differences between 20 newtons and 40 newtons will make all the difference. Whatever mesh specs that will help me print a very thin, opaque layer directly on top of the shirt instead of in it is the most important thing. If I can accomplish that with a 150/48 Murakami smartmesh s thread at 25 newtons better than I can with a 156/64 sefar at 48 newtons, then I'm gonna use the Murakami.
Re: PANELFrame system
All good points Alan!
Re: PANELFrame system
Thanks, all helpful info
Re: PANELFrame system
I can't begin to remember how many times I've heard a supplier say, or someone on a forum talk about keeping all their mesh at the same tension level in one job. I remember more than one story about how registration is faster, printing is faster, I've even been told you can't hold registration unless your screens are all within a few N of each other.
But we all know that a 305 to a 230 to a 110 at manu's specs are not the same in tension, so how could one do a job if mixing meshes then?
It's a case of over simplification, you just can't run the same mesh in every screen on every job, nor can you hold exactly 35 N or whatever on every mesh if you mix up different meshes. Definately an urban legend in my book.
Re: PANELFrame system
My PanelFrame kit from One Stroke should be here today with a 6 pack of 180 mesh. What kind of tension levels are you guys getting with the newer batch of meshes?
Re: PANELFrame system
We have been seeing at least high thirty's. Don't be afraid of the loud "snap" the first time.
-You Think it - We Print it -
MiddletownInk
Delaware
302-725-0705
megan@middletownink.com
middletownink.com
Re: PANELFrame system
You're getting high 30's on what mesh counts? Is that first stretched? Our shurloc ez's start that high and in the 40's on some mesh counts but they relax down to the mid to low 30's. I'm very surprised at those tension levels being had with the panel frames.
Re: PANELFrame system
Put all four frames together. One Stroke sent 230 mesh instead of 180, it is sefar though. Tightened them down and measured and I'm getting 20-22 newtons on all four frames, bleh. Should I print with them a few times then attempt a double roll on a short side?
Overall, quality looks nice, still tighter than my statics but I was hoping for a bit higher out of the gate.
Re: PANELFrame system
I certainly don't want to not believe Brian and his tension numbers, but I have heard from several others who are using them and they weren't getting anywhere near the 30 newton range with theirs. 230's first stretched and they are 20-22 means that they'll be 15 newtons in a few weeks after a couple uses. I think you'll have no choice but to try double rolling them to get anywhere near the tension a 230 needs to print correctly.
Re: PANELFrame system
You got me thinking last night so I pulled some screens out this morning and here is what I had. We have the green frames and using Sefar mesh 160, it actually has green written in the corner of the mesh. I assume that means it is for the green frames.
I had 3 screens not coated yet and put the meter on those. All three we have had since June and have been printed and reclaimed several times. One was 22, next was 15 and last was 18.
I popped two new panels in a frame. One was 36 and the other 35.
Maybe my high thirties was an exaggeration but still happy with the numbers we have. Rarely do I check tension unless we are running a job that requires it and most of those jobs I use roller frames or use new panels.
To replace statics I think the panel frames are great and the price of the mesh panels makes them a cost effective alternative. But I don't think they will ever replace roller frames for high mesh tension. Like I said in the past we went to them because of cost and no one else in my shop can remesh the rollers. So if i'm out of town and they need tight screens they have to wait for me to do them or they can pop new panels in.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Re: PANELFrame system
I'm going to test them again today after letting them rest overnight. We'll see what they're at, then I may try an idea that is marinating in my brain to get a little more tension without a double roll.
Re: PANELFrame system
Checked one frame again just now, 17 in one direction and 16 in the other.
So I decided to try the thing in my head! I have a roll of 2mm air tube here, cut a piece for the length of the short side, wrapped it inside the first roll butting it up against the stitching and plastic strip then rolling the mesh to hold it in. Retensioned and went from 16 to 20 in the long direction. Cut a strip of tubing for one of the long sides and retensioned and back up to 22.
Going to let it rest and see if the tension drops. May try adding the tubing to all 4 sides to see what happens!
Re: PANELFrame system
Meh, tension didn't last, back down to 16-17
Re: PANELFrame system
I've been trying to document all of my stretching and tension levels, before, during and after every stretch, with every different brand and type of mesh. I hope to have some really good info to share one of these days in the form of an excel spreadsheet and charts, graphs, tired head crap to get people to sleep. I've got numbers written down in my notepad and I just need to put it in a form that people besides me can gain something out of.
Re: PANELFrame system
Alan. I'd like to get a copy of that if you get it done.
Thanks
Re: PANELFrame system
Word!
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: PANELFrame system
There is new development regarding Panel Frames.
Panel Frames has been bought off by Shurloc and they will continues manufacturing them in hose, at same price. Like that all the problems that Panel Frames had in the past should be ironed out.
You can read more about latest development in this tread
http://boards.screenprintersopen.com/general/panel-frames-7185/