S.Roque - Anyone?

Sonny - what an excellent writing. It's clear that you put a great deal of effort into this. very nicely done sir.

You are too kind, gracious sir. I Thank Thee.

Awesome press if you like double passing Opaque plastisol.
MHM is the way to go for sure.

Give me a call. Sonny. 404-895-1796

Sonny W#TF if you have some useful information about the new machines in American then spill your beans on the forum, that is what its for. I for one seen that one of our suppliers is now selling Sroque and I am very curious about the machines in this country.

I would but I have questions as to what he prints as well as the other manufacturers he is looking at. That way I can give him the pluses and minuses in a comparison. The Sroque that I am familiar with is an oval. There are some distinct differences between an oval and a circular machine. Are we talking apples to apples or apples to oranges. As far as ovals go, I like them and dislike them. I am a fan of precision ovals for first auto buyers. Many reasons. If you can print on an oval then you can print on anything. They are inexpensive and if set up properly will match print quality of just about any press out there MHM included. I have too many questions to give an answer that will benefit him without that knowledge. Many people look for totally different things in presses and some spend too much for things that will not benefit them for a long time. I would answer the same post from you or anyone else the same way.

http://www.techsupportsps.com/
Talk to Alan Howe he is a great guy

Sonny he asked for actual personal info on the sroque machine, being new to our market a lot of people would love to hear about the new machine. You could have simply stated on a reply what you do know about Sroque no matter how limited it may be. But we all know your real agenda. This is a forum for information sharing and learning it is useless in principal if you dont share what you know when asked but turn it into something totally different to suit your agenda.

Now thats out of the way, why dont you tell us what you like and dislike about sroque and what is unique about the machine?

That wasn't hard was it? You could have wrote all that the first time and then this information is available for the masses. I know your agenda will be to talk the person into a MHM even you will admit to that, but the real question is why? Whats the pros and cons of the two machines in comparison?

Call Techsupport and talk to Allen, they do not have anything on their site about the machines. Like Inkman said he is a nice guy, very knowledgeable. I spoke to him about the machines about two months ago.

I looked into them a little when we were looking for a new auto, liked what I saw but at the time the closest dist was Dominican Republic. I have talked to a few people who have worked on them and all had good things to say.

I would say ALL of that has to do with air indexing. I have a M&R Auto, all Servo, no shaking here.

Although Inkman thinks I have an agenda, I have no dog in this fight. The ONLY reason to buy an MHM is potential revenue. An MHM will produce about 50% more shirts than any other press out there if used properly and about 33% more if used improperly. There is no machine on the market that gets from last shirt to first shirt faster, not even close.

See Sonny for a man with no agenda that statement you just made is ridiculous! The MHM cannot realize them numbers no frigging way! The only place the MHM is faster than the other major presses is set up, well sonny on a ten thousand piece job the set up is a negligible! So how can the MHM produce %50 faster than the CHIII? they both can index faster than a human can handle. Your statement is biased and false as hell.

Put it this way. Take five 100 piece jobs set it up on my press with Tri loc then yours run them, in the end you might beat me by a mere ten minutes if that assuming we run the jobs at the same index speed.

Lol

My argument against Sonny/mhm has always been because he speaks of these hypothetical numbers that are blown so far out of proportion and aren't going to happen in a real shop. Yes, a 6 color job will probably set up about 3-4 minutes faster if you're lucky so a shop that does 10 6-color jobs a day will see some significant increase in productivity. But that doesn't happen here, or any other shop I've been in. Then the claims of 50% more production sounds great, but it's not nearly that much, and if you do buy an S-type, are your sales going to magically increase by that 50% margin so you can find out if it will do 50% more in a day? No, they won't. Look, I'd love to have the mhm setup on my machine, but that's about the only thing it does better or faster (indexing is faster on the mhm) than my machine and I could probably come up with several minutes of time saving features other presses have over the mhm that would negate the great setup time.

In Sonny's defense, in the right hands and scenario, the mhm could very well be a better choice of machine than the competition. But he does make it sound like if you buy the mhm you'll get all these benefits that are really affected by other factors that are shop specific.

Take a presses ability to flash quickly and say press number one can dry cycle at 1500/hour but the flash unit holds up production to only 800/hour, then you have our RPM that will dry cycle at 1100/hour but our flash is way stronger than press number one and we can actually run the press at 1000/hour with the flash, that's a much better/more believable scenario in a real shop. Just because a press will cycle at 1500/hour or you could conceivably do 50% more during the day with a press doesn't mean it will ever happen due to all the other variables. Some shops I know have a bigger faster press than we do, but we do more in a day due to other factors than pure press speed and setup.

MHM is a known faster machine when it comes to set up. No doubt the machine is awesome in that regard. But set up time is only a small percentage of the over all production run. When it comes to index speed as Alan stated at what point is index speed already faster than a shop can handle? My press cycles at 1150+ and thats with out increasing the default index speed. Realistically tho we never have nor ever will runt at that speed. What I am saying is the MHM cannot claim to produce such a huge number more than any other machine on the market not happening. If this was even remotely true companies such as New Buffalo who have almost 30 automatics would run MHM's yet they run only M&R's.

I have no complaints about the pre reg of the MHM its awesome! Never meant to imply its not great but I will say with a decent press and a triloc the two systems are both fast. On the MHM you have to modify all your screens, on the TriLoc you have to use carrier sheets, nothing is perfect.

I doubt the MHM can index any faster than the CHIII they are both probably equal in that regards.

Mike,
Let's do the math. 5 4 color 100 piece runs. Start to finish. Screens shot, shirts laid out, clean squeegees, 600 pcs per hour.
Run Time both machines = 50 minutes total. This is 10 minutes per run.
Set up time. This includes putting the screens in the press, registering them, putting squeegees floodbars and ink in and getting a print ready sample.
M&R per job 8-10 minutes plus or minus 2-4 minutes. The factors involved with the time discrepency are pallet removal, tri lock pallet placement spinning the tri lock platen to all screens raising clamping lowering etc., tri lock platen removal, print platen put on print shirt. How fast one does that time in and time out is NOT consistent throughout the day.
MHM per 1-3 minutes plus or minus 30 seconds. Reasons NO platen is involved. NO air clamping. NO air locks on squeegee and floodbar. NO registering on press ( if pre press is right. )
So set ups for M&R for the 5 jobs total 30-50 minutes.
For the MHM 5-15 minutes.
Total production time M&R 90-100 minutes
Total production time MHM 55-65 minutes

Roughly speaking half the total time with the MHM.

You do bring up a valid point. On a 5000+ pc runs no real benefit.

However if I might be so bold as to point out that the profit margin is higher for most shops at runs under 144 pcs nay dare I say 72 pcs then the MHM is far more profitabls.

To clarify my statement. I have no dog in this fight as I DO NOT SELL EQUIPMENT.

To clarify my above statement...

MHM Value Proposition

* Unique and fast snap in Squeegee/Floodbar installation. No clamps needed.

MHM pull pin system is easier and faster than the mechanical or air clamp system as there are considerably less steps to perform.
Time Saving
6 color Job 3 mins
12 color Job 6 mins

* No tools easy to adjust Squeegee/Floodbar angle.

The competition requires you to loosen locking handles on both sides of the squeegee/floodbar.
MHM requires simply moving a lever, incremented in 5 degrees. No locking or unlocking required.
Time Saving
6 color job 3 mins
12 color job 5 mins

* Fast & Easy Pin locating Screen Holding System.
Holds screen end to end. No movement of frame that is common when using air clamping method which requires re adjustment taking additional time.
Time Saving
6 color job 4 mins
12 color job 8 mins

* Positive, fast and accurate True XY Micro Registration. No clamps
The MHM micro registration gives fast & precise true XY adjustment without having to lock/unlock the controls. The system on our competitors equipment moves the screen when locking/unlocking causing re adjustment of the screens into registration
Time savings
6 color Job 5 mins
12 color job 10 mins

* Print & flood stroke length adjustment
The MHM simply allows you to slide a plate to the desired travel distance.
No locking/unlocking needed and no wires to get snagged as is the case on our competitors equipment
Time savings
6 color job 3 mins
12 color job 6 mins

* Quartz Flash Units can be adjusted from main Control panel without stopping the machine.
This can be done on the MHM by simply increasing or decreasing the dwell time icon on the main touch screen control panel.
On our competitors equipment you have to access and go through several procedures to access this feature. Consequently the operator always stops the machine to make this adjustment.
Time savings
6 color job 2 mins
12 color job 3 mins

* Clean screens accessibility
The need to periodically clean the screens during production due to lint build up, especially when printing fleece, is made easy on MHM machines simply by touching the clean position icon on the main control panel. The machine will stop and the pallets will do a half index giving accessibility to the underside of the screens. Once the screen/screens are clean then touching the clean position icon again will move the pallets into the original position and the machine will continue to run in automatic mode.
On other equipment you have to stop the machine, hold down a reset button to disengage the pallet drive then manually move the pallets into a half index position to give screen accessibility. To return to normal production mode you have to, make sure you manually index the pallets in the opposite direction into the exact position then reengage the pallet drive.
Time savings on a 500 piece run
6 color job 6 mins
12 color job 8 mins

The above features will generate the following additional production and revenue over conventional Presses.

Time savings to set up a 6 color job 26 minutes
Time savings to set up a 12 color job 46 minutes

3 set ups per 8 hour shift. 6 Color 78 minutes
3 set ups per 8 hour shift. 14 color 138 minutes

Based on machine production of 500 per hour .6 Color job= 650 additional shirts pr 8 hrs
Based on machine production of 500 pr hr .12 Color Job= 1,150 additional shirts pr 8 hrs

At 50 cents per print on the 6 color job = an additional $325.00 per 8 hours
At 50 cents per print on the 12 color job = an additional $575.00 per 8 hours

Based on 5 x 8 hour shifts per week 6 color job $1,625.00 additional revenue
Based on 5 x 8 hour shifts per week 12 color job $2,875.00 additional revenue

50 work weeks per year 6 color job $81,250.00
50 work weeks per year 12 color job $143,750.00

Other Time Saving features

* Pallet change
To change pallets on the MHM machines simply touch the pallet change icon on the main control panel. This will unlock the pallet in the load/unload position. Simply lift the pallet off and place the new pallet in place. Touch the index icon and the pallets will lock, index and the pallets in the load/unload position will unlock. Repeat until all the pallets have been changed. Simple, fast, no leveling.
With the competition you have to reach under the pallet and loosen 4 levers, slide the pallet off, position the new pallet, slide it on and re lock the pallet in place with the 4 levers. You then have to manually move the pallets around to the next pallet is in the load/unload position and repeat until all the pallets are changed.
Time Saving
8 Pallet Machine 10 mins
14 Pallet Machine 14 mins

* Documented print parameters
The MHM has reference indicators for all print parameters on the machine, Squeegee pressure, Squeegee air pressure, Micro registration and memory that stores heads that are activated, how many squeegee/flood strokes on each head, Flash cure position, flash cure dwell time.
This information gives you the ability to recall this information when printing the same job at a later date resulting in a faster set up time.
Time Saving
6 Color Job 12 mins
12 Color Job 15 mins

Based on one pallet change per 8 hours and three job set ups the following additional revenue will be earned by having these features

Per 8 hour 6 color 46 mins
12 color 59 mins

Rick Roth Input
Rick feels the information is accurate and complete.
He suggested we work up a spreadsheet that customers can complete their own information on.
Also suggested we add a footnote stating that it does not include, pallet leveling and screen movement during operation.

Registration Pre Press
FPU vs. Tri Lock and Pin Registration

The cost savings on the MHM System are twofold. There is no need to buy carrier sheets for the film or the need to buy a bigger exposure unit to hold the Registration
frames which in turn hold the screens in the exposure unit.
This means we can use normal folders to catalog our art as we have no carrier sheets. The added dimensions of the other systems units that must be on your glass of your exposure unit may necessitate a bigger unit than you already have.
The benefit of pre registration is to decrease the registration part of set up times.
With this said, the MHM FPU is far superior to the others in 4 ways. They are: 1. No carrier sheets. 2. Better registration because we place each piece of film directly ON the screen and are thus insured of a tighter registration. 3. We can shoot as many screens at once that our exposure unit will hold. 4. Our FPU holds the screen the EXACT same way our presses hold the screen.

This is where the FPU will save you money as there are only 4 steps used on press as opposed to 15 – 18 steps used on press by our competitors.
MHM FPU steps are:
1. Place screens in press
2. Put squeegees, floodbars, and inks in screens
3. Run strike off and micro IF necessary
4. Begin run
M&R Tri Lock steps are:
1. Place screens in heads
2. Remove a platen from press
3. Put Tri-Lock platen on press
4. Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to first screen
5. Lock table
6. Raise table
7. Pull screen against the stops on Tri-Lock
8. Lock screen
9. Lower table
10. Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to next screen
11. Repeat steps 5-10 for all remaining screens
12. Remove Tri-Lock platen
13. Replace platen removed in step 2
14. Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
15. Print sample shirt
16. Micro registration if necessary
17. Begin run
Anatol with Pin Registration steps are:
1. Place screens in heads
2. Engage Pin Registration bars by swinging them out and locking them into position on the platen they are installed on
3. Free wheel or index platen to first screen
4. Lock table
5. Raise table
6. Pull screen to pins and hold
7. Lock screen
8. Lower table
9. Free wheel or index registration platen to next screen
10. Repeat steps 4 – 9
11. Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
12. Return Pin Registration bars to their stowed position
13. Print sample shirt
14. Micro registration if necessary
15. Begin run

The total time savings on an average MHM 6 color setup is 20 minutes.

NIce info sonny but not the real world not oquite.

It takes all of a nano second to press a button to lock your squeegee flood bar, you make it to sound like it takes a ton of time.

Swapping the jig for the platen takes seconds literally just seconds.

How freaking long does one take to slide a screen in place raise the table pull screen to stop blocks and hit lock down buttons? Man Donny you make it sound like it takes forever.

You really really nit picked and cherry picked everything to try and cover your statement about MHM producing %50 more than other presses, what you should have stated the Mhm can set up faster, that would be accurate but to make the set up times savings as over all part of the whole production well that's not telling the whole story.

And go back and redo your math you have a boo boo in there naturally not in M&r,s favor.

At the end of the day where MHM will kick other presses arses is if a shop was running literally small qty high color count jobs all day long every single day. As it is not many shops can sustain that kind of work flow and also be able to afford the hefty price tag of the MHM. And again you will still see the largest producers in qtys running press,s other than MHM. Not saying MHM is bad ofcourse it's just some proof that your math is ridiculous because if it were true all the biggest producers would only use MHM.

Which model of the MHM is their "entry level" press?

Sonny!
I am impressed with your logic/presentation.
It may or may not be applicable to all printers situation, but it is a great
place to start. As far a Sroque machines, I think that they are really well
built machines. I do like alot of their thought process.I have worked on their
machines in Latin America, and in general their users were happy. I do think
the pneumatic index comparison of an older M&R vs. a servo index M&R was
unfair.Sometimes it is a little hard, for me to follow the thought process of
printers on this board with their wants vs. needs, but I have to remind myself
that most are "startup shops" both manual and automatic. We are suppose to
have fun (very important) but equally important, we are supposed to make money, or it then becomes "just a hobby" really.The poster says he has an
Anatol, and an M&R! Was he happy? What are his normal size runs? Does
he print large oversize, or smaller standard size prints? What are his perceived
wants? He doesnt say! Most who have multiple auto machines, and make money
know where they intend to go! Simple.That being said, I really Like Sroque
machines, but would not even entertain a press made in Portugal in the current
economic times, of that country, unless I worked on the machines myself or had
someone that I trust that did. For the USA market? I dont think they have adequate representation or commitment! I maybe wrong. As far as MHM's, I think they are brilliant machines! I like Gavin Kidd! I think Hirsch is not commited either, never has been in my opinion. The new Italian company,that
now owns MHM? Time will tell.Their service/support sucks! But that being said,
most who own MHM machines,and continue buying them, have learned to work
around these issues, and wouldnt trade their machines for another brand.I would advise the poster to look again at M&R,Anatol,RPM,Tas, and if they are
printers who will learn to accept more proactive responsibility, then MHM.
winston

Rich,
My numbers are based on the set ups and the concept of the fewest steps to do a set up. There are M&R users that with a Tri Lock can set up almost as fast. The only difference is the use of a platen. When you introduce a platen into the mix you are slower.
With that said, let me clear up something. I think M&R machines are as good as any other high end press ( TAS, MHM, Anatol etc) your equipment is very good. I have no bias one way or the other. I base my numbers on ME doing the set ups. As you know I have had to run on a daily basis all of the above with and without a "registration system". Overall the MHM was easiest.

On a side note I want to say to you personally Rich that what you did Wed. here in my humble little town was great. I totally agree with his decision to buy an M&R and know that it was the perfect fit. I am glad to see you give the kind of service that you are personally known for. You went above and beyond the call of duty and I thank you for lowering his stress level. I said at the beginning of this post that I had no agenda as I do not sell equipment. All I asked for was a number so I could ask the questions that Winston asked. I was lambasted by Mike and here is where we are at.
When I am pushed into a corner I will push back. All of my responses to people are based on my actual hands on experience. I agree that M&R are a fit for some as Anatols are for others and TAS , etc. The whole thing was about SRoque until I was accused of having an agenda.
In all honesty I do prefer MHM simply for ease of use. The Challenger 3 is a phenomenal press and any shop would benefit from having one.

I apologize to you Rich that this got out of hand.

That would be the E Type. There are 2 for sale on the classifieds on this forum. However that has been replaced with the X Type.

Let me get this right Sonny. You claim MHM will produce 50% MORE than any other machine, help me out here because largely the world isn't interested in MHM machines.

So what's more believable:
1. You are completely full of ****.
2. You are telling the truth and screen printers are idiots.
3. You are exaggerating drastically. A MHM may be faster to set up, the truth is that it is no where near producing 50% more because of that. Sadly you know it too.

This is why I don't buy or try your ink. You've always been overly dramatic about MHM and your ink and largely guys are not happy with your ink so I have to assume MHM isn't all you say it is either.

Once again my numbers were based on me doing the set ups from my days running both presses.
So I guess i should quantify my statement in the following way.
Because of the set up procedures of the MHM you have the possibility of producing UP to 50% more in any given extended time frame.

While I am at it I would like to here from somebody that has run both types of presses, not someone who has only run one or the other. I will admit that some of what I say is hard to believe if you have not run both presses. So before you accuse me of total bull****, go run a MHM for a week somewhere.

Let's get this back to the original subject and discuss Sroque.

That's certainly a more believable statement.

Having seen a MHM reg system I can say I would assume its slightly faster, but 50% is a overstatement IMO. You might get that if you were comparing the best MHM operators to the worst M&R's. IMO not if you were talking best of the best on both.... Time savings would be near nothing. Plus first time you have to wait on a part from over seas M&R moves way in front :D

%50 faster set up is one thing %50 production is another. Everyone knows MHM has the fastest setup system available but it also comes with a mighty price!

Read the latest print mag, New Buffalo has 27 M&R automatics and they produced millions of shirts last year. Now if Sonny's math was correct New Buffalo would buy 14 MHM's instead of 27 M&R's. Wonder why that isn't so?

Nobody really cares about MHM! Afew people who where their watches upside down and drive saabs maybe. MHM has no service to speak of in the usa. MHM might have the fastest setup, but who gives a ***** if you save a few minutes in setup when you are waiting months in service and weeks in parts, how much time was saved then. People us M&R for one main reason TRACK RECORD!!

I believe that would be the E type.

Don't forget his magic screens!

I was going to buy aroud 5-600.00 of stuff from Sonny, but after he was trashing M&R auto screen cleaner I had my office manager cancel the order.

2 years later ,, no ones poo pooing Roque presses now.

I am from South Africa and we have a S Roq. It works like magic. It will give every other machine in the market a run for its money. Its silent and its fast, the heads pic up so it makes it easier to clean the screens when its blocked and also lift the print head to put a flash dryer underneath the print head. It prints in both directions clock wise and anti clockwise.

Its has all the good stuff from all the brands put together and its cheaper. The You is the entry level and the ECO is just made a better quality but both the print quality are the same. the major difference is the on the YOU all the print heads pick up together due to one central air piston or shaft and on the ECO it has independent elevation on every print head.

Their flock and automatic foiling attachments work wonders compared to other brands thats been in the market for years and still didnt get it right.

In my opinion it is the best press on the market and value for money. Most the printing companies in SA are are changing and buying the S Roq brand. MHM, Tas and Anatol presses are now being dominated by the SRoq. Their tech and support and service are excellent. I will be buying a few more in the coming year.

The only minor problem I have noticed is that the space is tight to fit the squeegee or flood bar on when the screens are on but I cant really complain because once it slides in the single pin squeegee lock works perfectly.

Good buy guys honestly.

Get it right, Playtex and Mustank.

Play it smart brotha, narrow it down between M&R and MHM. Not to act like a "blue baller", what ever that means anyway, but M&R you can be guaranteed, will be there to support your machine and make your business profitable. That has been tested time and time again. There are many machines, yes, there is only "1" company that is there for their customers at the highest level, simply put, that is M&R. Technology, nice, machines that run, and run, and you have to do your job to keep the jobs coming in to keep them running, M&R presses. That's just the bottom line.

Hate to break it to you but printex is no longer trend setting.