I just bought a Brother Bes 1210ac in really good condition. Lady who bought it was super old and got it from FCS machinery in perfect working condition. She never could figure out to use it so she gave up and I see why. The manual is super confusing. However as a screen printer and plotter person with several plotters and decal machines using the same x & y features I feel I can get the hang of it and figure it out until I can make enough ROI to buy a newer computerized machine.
My machine came with everything but software.
What can I use? I purchased a usb to floppy. But what software can I use to digitize and convert the file to put on the floppy and put into the machine to start stitching. I am a complete newbie to embroidery so anything helps..
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Anyone? Just need to know what software will work and convert to the file needed for this machine.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Oh wow...... This is going to be a big learning curve then.
Being familure with screenprinting and plotter cutters doesn't really help... well it might a little but not really. Screenprinting you use "rip" software ect... But with embroidery the setup is for someone to literally redraw stitches in software.
Embroidery requires digitizing or punching (oldschool terms to refer to redrawing using embroidery techniqes) into a specific file format. Which is the processes of redrawing and programming a stitch file to lay stitches down.... you used the word "convert"... which really means your in early stages...
"converting" is what is known as auto-digitizing... and while it exsists it doesn't work like rip software it is more of a program tool like auto tracing a low res bitmap into vector art. The results are aweful and can sometimes damage the machines. Auto-digitizing is for shortcuting parts of artwork but needs a skilled digitizer to correct the parts.
For a newbie the best option is to get in contact with good digitizers and pay for them to digitize... that said do not go with the cheapest... the results are bad. Also
The top 2 softwares are Wilcom and Pulse.
The software is usually between $2000 for low tier and home versions. And $12,000-$15,000 for top tier.
Taking it on yourself is... not only costly but one of the hardest things to get good at from artistic and technical perspective.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Because you have a brother (old and I know a lot about them) and only a single head... If your seriously going into embroidery you would need more than a single head as it is really only useful for a handful of things (IE orders of 4-6 or doing specialty work when pairing it with a multihead)
The learning curve is going to be even harder. You need backing materials ect.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
I know machines are more advanced now but these workhorses did the job in the past. It can't be that hard to use this as a startup and grow my apparel printing business with some type of ROI to invest in a newer, better model.
What do you suggest I do to take steps forward. You said I will need backing. I though most all embroidery projects need backing?
I am just mainly concerned right now about software. I know I can handle and learn the rest fast just like any other person has when the machine first came out. I just want a good software. What format does this machine need file wise?
If I design and image in photoshop/corel. If I send it to a digitizer. Do I just give them the dimensions I need it in etc etc. I just want to know how all that works with this machine. I know the newer ones this can be done all on screen.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Part1.
Err the screens on newer machines just display files loaded into the machine and their progress and HOW the file is aligned to the machine (lets you know if you have the artwork upsidedown when you need to rotate it) and have a lot more control. Industrial models don't have (or dont have much) built in software for creating art. Its a verification and progress tool. At least all the industrial models. The machines themselves can have internal memory storage so you can load files without having to go to a computer but they don't design new art.
Some home models have built in files and tools but they don't have the ability to actually create artwork new except for preinstalled text fonts but that is about it. All new files are made using digitizing software that can on newer machines be sent directly to it.
Its not so much the workhorse factor but more in line of what is your business model, what you are using it for? what kind of work will you be selling with it? How much work do you plan to sell? How will you charge for it. That determines if it is a profitable return on investment or not... Do you have a storefront/warehouse or is it out of home? (genuinely asking cause it could be a bigger investment than you think thats why single heads are always up for sale)
I have a brother 1201 and 1204. The 1210 and 1201 model heads just cannot produce the same stitch quality of the 1204 and the 1204 cant hold a candle to todays modern machines. The speed hasn't increased at all really in the past 20 years its the overall quality and accuracy. And yes All embroidery needs some kind of backing but not all backing is equal or correct.
The point i was trying to make was more a single head is... a useful tool but not the most profitable place to start with. And don't take what I am saying the wrong way. Its more a forewarning of not making the costly mistakes that we/I had made in the past. I am an expert because I made mistakes and worked my *** off to fix them/get better but it takes years.
Depending on the digitizer yes and no. Most of the time you give them the file in the format of their choosing and then if they are good digitizer they will want to know what kind of fabric it is going on, the size, if you need a hat file or just a standard left chest file. (you need seporate files for both). They will also warn you of limitations within the art that some art can't be that small or some art needs to be adjusted (which they will do on their end but they will warn you)....
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Part 2. Software files and how the machines work.
Wilcom and Pulse are the top two producers of Embroidery software (with a few dozen other companies but honestly its best to avoid them if your really looking to expand in the future... because ALLL embroidery software files are pretty much proprietary and generally can't be converted... or not well. (quality loss) So if you upgrade to a software from a different company all your previous files would not open in it. (exceptions to the rule but generally the case)
Digitizing & Embroidery machine files.
To start with there are 2 types of embroidery file. The Outline file, and the Machine File.
Outline files are basically a form of special vector file and actually creating embroidery files starts out very similarly to drawing vector art from scratch but from from that point they differ and it becomes less about the software and more about the skill level of the digitizer to predict how the fabric is going to move and create compensation without reducing quality. Ouline files are usually proprietary files that only open up in the same program they were created in. These files are also what you need in order to improve quality resize edit and most importantly used to improve run times.
The second File type. Machine file. For brother you need .dst which is the standard file type almost all industrial machines can read but others do exsist but are generally related to a specific brand of machine. in the case of .dst all outlines and color data are stripped out and the final calculation of the xy of each individual stitch is created. Oddly enough its not a coordinate map as much as it is values for movement that refrences the previous coordinate. These files are what are needed to run the machine at a basic level. These files are usually something you never want to edit or mess with but it is possible to edit them but you loose quality along the way.
While I absolutely think everyone should have the good software I don't advise people to buy it until they have a year or two of embroidery under their belt. Cause learning to run the machine is really really easy. Digitizing a file that runs perfectly looks clean doesn't break the machine, and doesn't take 4x as long to produce than it should... that is hard.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
I am loving all the info.
My business plan is to simply offer hat embroidery and business solutions ( Chest patch logos ). I do not plan on taking on super little projects for people who want just a name or something like that which will take more time to setup than be profitable. As a screen printer I have tons of clients who are interested in polos and hats for their business and workers. So I would only make available the embroidery for bulk orders with higher profit margins. I have a storefront business but I am not open to the public for walk-ins. It is only a hub for pickups, order placement and appointments. Noone can just walk in and say I need this. They only make it into the store if it's something I can help them with. Most all of my traffic moves through my facebook business page etc. I stay very busy with screenprinting and vinyl decals alone so I take on the jobs as I see fit.
My goal is to be able to stitch multiple business logos on polos etc. Also stitch logos for businesses on hats. All requiring a minimum order of at least 10-12 items. I have not looked into the pricing yet.
As of right now my main focus is to -
A. Find a software easy to use that will help me learn to create the files needed to stitch.
B. Until i find my way through the software learn how to run the machine with files prepared for me by digitizers.
C. Learn how to setup the machine for multi color jobs. I'm not too sure how the machine knows to switch colors or what number needle said color is on.
D. Learn to setup the hat driver quickly and efficiently. My main goal is hats and beanies for businesses. I don't want to be a lids where I'm doing a different design every day for 1-2 hats. I want to be able to set hats up and just repeat the print. I am not looking to do 100 items a day. I assume I will only use the machine a few times a week.
I bought it for $2400 from the lady so If this is something professionally others think will be hard for me or I can't figure it out quickly to start printing 1 color jobs on hats and polos I will just resell. It's a nice machine and can get more than what I paid. This lady just wanted it gone.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
sounds like you're on you way to a plan. as far as software goes, its probably best to start out with at least a lettering/editing package. they're less expensive, and if you get, say, Wilcom basic software, the digitizer should be able to send you the .emb file and you can easily resize and manipulate it. i believe wilcom is probably the most common software now so it should be easy to find a digitizer that uses it. if you do decide to get into digitizing later on, you should be able to upgrade it to the full digitizing software. but, honestly, it sounds like you have a lot on your plate and you may never find the time to seriously get into digitizing. i have some customers that have been doing embroidery for over 20 years and still only do basic lettering and simple designs, and send the rest out. when you have your customer pay for the 'set-up' (digitizing), it shouldn't cost you anything to have it done. there is no substitute for a well-digitized design. especially starting out, because if you're having trouble stitching a file, you'll wonder if its the machine or a problem with the digitizing and you'll pull your hair out trying to get a decent sewout. the digitizing makes ALL the difference between quality and crap, and customers coming back....or not.
digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Pt. 1
I spent so long writing this digitsmith auto logged me out. But i do like that Digidana replyed cause that was a genuinely in my comments. (managed to copy paste below) apparently it was also to long.
Okay to summarize my LT:DR you've bought what is somewhat of a lemon... and you have 3 options take a loss on it and sell it for about $1000 or find a sucker... newbie.... cause my later model brother 1201 with a much more powerful control box but is 100% the same mechanics is worth of maybe that $2400 at most currently. lastly... You take that machine, you use it, but forget software... I can send you a test DST and if you PM me I can tell you how to load the file... And then because a single head is not profitable in your model YOU take what i say below and INVEST not in software but a used 4-head or 6-head.
(sorry to say I am not the most coddling I am someone who has lost money making mistakes but i am the most "active expert" internet wise on brother industrial embroidery equipment due to brother basically saying "we are done with this" in 2009 and completely firing all the high paid experts. And i have had to reinvent the wheel, all the others are about 50-60y/o and are hard af to get a hold of and cost 3x as much and I end up teaching them things they didn't know I actively know more about the value of used machines.) I have genuine previously employed brother techs calling/emailing me up for what i rebuilt.
Okay as a note for figuring out pricing No matter what the production method you are using... the math for pricing should always be based on (cost + overhead + profit divided by time for production)...
Now the issue that you will run into is, if you are trying to be competitive at a 10-12 piece minimum. you wont be able to price it low enough to be competitive and sustainable Your competitors will probably have a 4 head or a 6 head machine (4-6 simultaneous identical products). So essentially your pricing would never be low enough with a single head unless your working out of a garage... which... even then you wouldn't be able to compete with high production facilities meant to handle 100 item orders or so. that Said if you work out of your home... Let it be known i will still tell you things but I officially will withhold key details... mainly cause I offer paid onsite training both in introduction. Provide free tools to at least look at what your doing. and teach the basics all the way up to more advanced things. (especially on brother machines) But again i charge money.
As a note a single small 6 square inch logo can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 20 minutes to run based on detail. and it can go up from there. A full back logo can take up to 4 hours or so. Stitchount is usually the math people spout but they assign pricing based on time studies and division of production if they know what they are doing and newbies make the mistake of replicating that model without understanding WHY its that price.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
A minimum of 12 pieces, average 8000 stitchcount 8 trims/color changes) estimated averaged out time for you would be 10 minutes machine prep and material prep (cannot use the word setup cause that is what the industry calls digitizing). A single item would take approximately 15 minutes per run/swapout to the next set. meaning a set of 12 items would take you over 3 hrs. +/- Not including cutting off backing, trimming loose looped and stray threads and steaming hoopmarks out. which means assuming an average overhead cost of production plus profit margins you would have to price it at $18-$33ish to make any money while a competitor with a 4head, the same overhead costs and profit margins can price it at $6-9 per piece for the work. Single heads are more profitable when your selling an item that cost you $25, has a retail price of $50 and are charging $15 to put a name on it. or more often its better for doing 1 full back item while you are running a 4 head (the real profit machine). Or lastly modern single heads are generally designed for personalization automation where you are doing 20 items with names and have 4 single heads auto loading name files.
My suggestion is if your seriously wanting to add embroidery... starting with a single head is not how you do it. Single heads are not for mass production they are for specialized tasks, prototyping and, and small qty orders to be handled at the same time someone is running a big machine. Meaning if your serious find a way to finance a used multihead cause those things can be cheaper than a brand new single head. (12-20K for a new single head) or rethink your business model to take better advantage of its uses IE high profit margin products where you only really need 1 or 2.
People who are use to comparing screen-printing prices (especially retail) look at a full back or left chest price for embroidery and scoff and call you a rip off artist even when you have multi-head machines. But if your selling a single $150 retail price backpack with a logo that takes 15minutes to run... suddenly your making genuine profit and people don't freak out as much cause they respect the price of the item but not of the work.
You also used the word patch... Doing a logo on a piece of apparel is just considered Embroidered apparel. where as a patch is a slightly different process where you embroider onto a separate material and attach it to the garment. Doing all in house is extremely labor intensive compared to direct embroidered garments. Where as full patch making... requires a minimum of 3x4heads 2xsingle-heads, All with sash-frame flatbed attachments and powerful software or massive understanding of the machine. A single piece of fabric and backing is attached in a square and the patches are nested onto the fabric, A laser or flatbed cutter with a cut file matching the material, and a single marrowing machine (professional patch edger). 2-3 people could run that many machines efficiently reducing the price and costs of labor... reducing overhead costs and efficiently funneling the workflow.
As for your questions.
A. Easy and Good are mostly mutually separate. But if you are looking for failure and good than If you really want to pay money for something easy to use... My suggestion would be purchase wilcom lettering studio. It can create text via built in text fonts and adjust and edit a files stitch length, pull compensation, density, unerlay and angle of the EMB outline stitchfiles from a digitizer, it cannot create new objects other than text but it has powerful edit controls. usually retails for $12-15hundred. That would be my suggestion for starting point especially because wilcom does great trade in and upgrade deals allowing you to buy as you go without sacrificeing your file history (often times worth more than the software do to replication and recreation costs).
B. Digitdana here. I have not used them because I do my own digitizing but as a note the ROI is only cause I understood things by the point I bought the software 2.5 years ago I am still paying off debt for the first 2.5 years I didn't understand things... get in touch with them and they can guide you on the outsource digitizing process, and they will give you an .emb and .dst format (wilcom also offers a free tool that allows you to open raw emb outline files and make sizing, and other changes then convert to dst for the machine but don't resize more than 10% cause high detail art requires use of tools that cannot resize properly... IE manual stitch control instead of vector control.
C. A dst saves artwork with a few major control types. Penetration (stitches), Jumps (moving to a position but not creating a stitch), Trim (which in dst format is 3x 0.0 movement jumps) and lastly Color changes.
when you load a dst file into the machine you then have to do a needle select... and when the file needs to switch to a new color you define which machine needle has that color. and the reason you need to do it that way is because you can create layering effects in complex artwork for instance You need the program to go from black to white to black to create a layering effect you need adjustment. you also have instances where your running the same file on 20 things but you have half using an outline color of one color and the other half using a different color while the rest of the file remains the same. it allows you to change needles for color associated objects midway though without loading new files.
As a note trims and color changes are extreamly costly. the average time for a color change or trim on your brother single head is approximately 10-20 seconds., where stitch running rates are approximately averaged out to 750 if your running above 750 stitches per minute if its running at a good control speed and adjustment speed... The internal control settings if you have it set to high ish quality the math balances out to 1 trim is worth 250 stitches. An average file can have anywhere from 5 to 15 trims... 15 trims per file easily brings the run time up by almost 4 minutes on average. 4 minutes per run/ running 12 piece minimum is 48 minutes of total increased production time. Low quality software does not allow for improved trim control as such will cost you LOTS of production time and high quality software would be prohibitive on ROI on a single head.
D. The hat driver setup time on that... yeah there is no "improving" its swap out time there is only mastering it through practice... thats why most have swapped out to a 4 position and 5 position mount instead of 8.
And you would probably be looking at a maximum of 15-20 a day or less in terms of output...
Lastly... Oh dear... you bought that POS for $2400.... I mean... If the previous owner knew what they were doing with it kept it maintained and could prove it worked... you bought an unknown... Brother Industrial machines are presently worthless without expertise training and proof behind them. That model is so old and Brother has a poor quality compared to cost reputation... And later in their life an even poorer quality and reliability to cost reputation... its... bad.
Lets put it this way if you want to genuinely start embroidery that is an undertaking but not one to take on cheap or lightly... Many embroidery companies go out of business without the right understanding in investment... invest to low and you'll never be able to sell enough... invest to much and without the knowledge you're ROI is litterally... 6years of work trial and error debt mistakes ect if you dont invest the right way.
single head focused embroider businesses have a general thing in common. they are selling premade artwork with minor alterations and maybe stock personalization at a high premium... Usually tourist type environment where people will pay a ridiculous amount...
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
This is not to be discouragement I am trying at least to give genuinely cost analysis on this topic... as this industry is a mixed bag of people quoting numbers without knowing what they are doing.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
I just call it a patch in general. I know the difference in embroidery and patch work. I just call all my screened fronts patches if they want it on the boob lol.
I thought I was getting a good deal also since they were selling on ebay for $3500-4500.
I understand you have some bitterness towards Brother.
Its really simple. I need to make due with what I have. Embroidery is not the business I want to be in. It is simply something extra I want to offer. I have very little competition around here. The one guy I know in the area does embroidery and does very well with a few single heads. I do not want to splurge on a double right now just starting off.
I just want to set it up correctly. Do some basic logo work on hats, beanies and polos.
I understand its not the best machine. But it is a start. I understand how long jobs take and all of that. This is just a way for me to get more in my door and up-sell t-shirts etc. I am not trying to be the stitch king. I am just trying to offer my loyal customers a bit more.
I am already here enough and have a super low overhead. So running 10-12 hats or polos or whatever it is and whatever time it takes is no biggie to me.
I just want to learn how to run the machine and do some basic stuff. I am not worried about the $2400. I will make that back with everything else I do. I guess I should have just waited and bought a better newer machine.
decaldepotohio@gmail.com is my email if you can send a test file.
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
Hi itemp-
I am very impressed with your knowledge of the industry, especially with your insight on "small shop" operations.
My wife and I have a small shop in a small town and run 5 brother single heads, started with a PR600 and have managed to collect 5 of the 0901's, the business is building and I can see a tajima multi-head in our not so distant future.
I wondered if you are ever for hire on a consultant/tech basis and if so what is the best way to contact you?
If nothing else I do appreciate the time you have put in on your in-depth responses on this forum.
Thanks for your time,
Sandy
Re: HELP NEWBIE WHO BOUGHT BROTHER BES 1210AC
I definitely do consultation work/tech support pretty often.
Both remote and on location assesments training opperational and procedural updates.
I will send you a msg with some contact info.