I Stand With Israel.....

I prefer the Americans dealing with iran. Unfortunately I think that Israel treat the Palestinians not much better than the nazis treated the Jews during WWII.
I agree the right to as Jewish state, but pushing the boundaries out and persecuting the Arabs in their own land also, denying healthcare, international aid, medicines etc is just baiting and asking for trouble. Killing the civilians on the aid ships in international water was nothing short of piracy. Israel I do agree has the right to nationhood, but needs to be a neighbour that does not create hatred. Not sure how they do that to live together in peace, but they can't bleat history and persecution forever while making their neighbors live in misery and poverty. America helps them so much, always has, but at what cost. 9-11 and the dealing with al-Qaeda. Israeli governments need to also respect any crap they cause costs America in taxes and blood also. It's a selfish onesided relationship. Israel has treated Jordan very well and in return they have had peace. Admittedly Iran is an agressive country and not to be trusted at all, but reflective of a minority population in power, not of the people in general. Sure the world needs to jump on Iran, and I don't think they should have Nukes. But Israel will only inflame the matter more with more countries into a greater religious offensive. The united nations needs to be more involved. Remember George W rushing into iraq on his intelligence. Iraq is not better off for many now than it was before.
It is noted that America never went into Zimbabwe after Mugabe, a butcher dictator. Why, no oil? Why not Russia who bullies it's neighbors, because Putin is too strong? Now Putin is dangerous, perhaps as much as ahmendinejad also, hopefully the people dump him.
The last thing we need is a war right across the middle east, because the traditional allies will get dragged in again and we will all bleed also.

If only all our neighbors were like Canadians and Australians and we could live happily with respect and friendship.

Winston, love your printing posts, but couldn't help voice my opinion even though it will likely upset most people reading this.

Wiz I am with you and always have been. Unlike a lot of Americans I have taken the time in the past to truly understand and learn the history behind the creation of Israel and Zionism. Most Americans just assume the Israelis are just peace loving simple folk being terrorized daily when it is far from the truth. There was a time the Palestinians and Jews lived side by side but then the war came and the Jews sequestered all the Palestinians into two little strips of land. Today they continue to encroach on Palestinians land and sacred areas with zero compassion. The Jews never handled their presence in the middle east well and because of it things are just as bad today as back then. You can always find videos being publicly broadcasted of young arabs throwing rocks across the border or at Jewish troops but you never see the young Jews that terrorize the young Palestinians in the same way, hardly ever do you see the bull dozers razing Palestinian lands to create more condos for the wealthy. America would do well to treat Israel with the same contempt as they do the Palestinians.

I do not think Israel attacking and destroying Irans nukes is such a bad thing, I would bet that all the other Middle Eastern Nations are just as concerned about the nukes as the Jews. For the most part Middle Eastern nations want peace and do not welcome mass conflict, Iran with operational nukes would almost definitely destabilize the whole area and throw just about any and all middle eastern nation into dissaray, who really wants that? Other than Iran's insane leaders.

I'm not educated enough on foreign relations and especially the history of Israel v. Palestine and the rest of the middle east, the story I've always heard was that we are allies with Israel and they have been mistreated all these years. Whatever the story is, I sure as hell don't trust Iran, and the last thing they need in their hands is a nuclear warhead.

Two Great Historical fiction novels to read about the history of Israel Pre and post WW2 written by an American Jew Leon Uris.

"Exodus" is written from the Jewish point of view and the founding of the Israeli state.

The "Haj" Is written from the Arab point of view which mainly describes the existence of Jews and Arabs living close together and actually helping each other out, but it really explains the out side pressure placed on the Arabs to revolt against the Jews and then their subsequent segregation to the west bank.

The ironic thing is the Palestinians are the only groups to suffer from the wars with Israel, all the out side countries simply lost the war but continue to live in peace and prosperity. Sadly the Palestinians live in area not much better than the Ghettos the Jews had to endure in Europe for hundreds of years.

I personally would like to see Jerusalem turned into a multi national city administered and policed by an out side un biased nation something along the lines of the swiss guard in Vatican.

Remember when Isreal had ZERO nuclear weapons even with thorough US inspections. Then all of a sudden someone blew the whistle and over night they became the 6th largest nuclear power in the world?

Does anyone remember what happened to that whistle blower?

Something not right about that.

IF you believe them.

Check out about that whistle blower story. They bricked up entire elevator doors to make it look like they didn't have an underground facility that was producing the nuclear weapons.

Propaganda is a powerful tool.

I don't know which one I trust or believe over the other... I'm just saying that I wouldn't trust or believe what I was told by either side OR my own country or "news" organizations. So don't take anything at "face value" and assume they have been "unjustly" wronged.

Inkman, I never thought about your point, but am in agreement, that maybe merge Israel and Palestine, tear down the walls, reform the laws, let people work, give them healthcare and food under independent leadership like the UN or something and live together well. Remember Israel has a huge Palestinian population living there in prosperity and harmony with their neighbors in civil friendships. It can work. But they need independent leadership, outside the conservatives and fundamentalists on each side with their hatreds which is a minority of fundamentalists, both sides. It will take at least two generations to forget the past and love thy neighbour. The problem I think is that the west especially the USA feels guilty and let's Israel get away with too much because of historical injustice as well as their
US voter and wealth base lobbying the politicians. I mean it is not condoned by other countries. What Israel has done is not much better than what is going on in Syria, or Libya etc, but it has been allowed for so long. For some countries it has worked breaking up borders to smaller countries based on race or religion or ethnicity, and others have managed to peacefully resolve and live in harmony alongside, the latter is the only way because of the historical living their and their claims to the land. Remember in the times of the crusades that the Jews and the Muslims lived in Harmony until the Christian west came along. I think this is still the problem in that the USA enables the Israelis to keep living in conflict without forcing them to the table to find resolution because it has the backing of power and fear to keep the greater Arab states at bay. Those same states would be equally uncomfortable with Iranian nuclear power, we all know that, but it is essential Israel does not inflame the region and its nuclear aspirations are destroyed by a UN endorsed coalition.

Don't get me wrong, I love America. We believe we are allies despite Reagan shunning us with sanctions and no training or weapons support due to our anti nuclear status in the eighties. We have bled and lost our youth with the highest casualties per capita in WW1, we were the first ally beside Britain in WW2, and every conflict since, Korea, Vietnam the Gulf, Afghanistan, etc not to mention all our peacekeepers and SAS special ops continually on service overseas. Like Australia we would be beside America, but I think it is dangerous to blindly go into something started by Israel on its own. They have no regard for others but expect us to save their butts and bury our people and pickup the tax to pay for it. I think they are acting like a spoilt child not listening to their family.
What would be the outcome if Obama said enough! Israel is on its own, not only that we are going to put peacekeepers into Palestine and tear down some settlements and rearrange the fences. Invest in the area based on peace and harmony with the Palestinians and Arabs.???

Maybe WW3 may be guerilla terrorism across multiple countries, fundamentalists versus governments fueled by hatred of foreign policies? If you want scary, look at the buildup of forces between India and China. Still it comes down to hot heads. Irans leaders are very dangerous there, but remember the people protested and were beaten down. I know some Iranians, and they are lovely people, but they are fearful of the leadership. I think a targeted bomb on the parliament would make more change than on a military installation which is rebuilt with metal and concrete. Rebuilding the leadership of the country is needed instead.
You should also note that the Iranian military machine is much more advanced and dangerous than Iraq. Any attack would be viewed in religious terms and also destabilize governments of allied and moderate countries around them as well. Iraq, Libya, Egypt and now Syria also were relatively stable before uprising and overthrowing the government, now is destable, the countries are not thriving ahead or moving forward, and in fact is able to sustain terrorists much easier now.
Remember Lebanon was a lot like Morocco and a thriving place before civil war, and now it's still one of the sadest countries in the world where once it was a beautiful thriving place. Leaving this to drag generations causes deeper hate and bigger problems to solve.
We need to look to history to learn from. That may be taking out government leaders, like Hitler and saving a war. Look at what has failed, try something new.
Also can we think about North Korea. A dictatorship starving and brainwashing millions, keeping the population in the dark ages, while the hierarchy get obese with luxuries and sit behind a massive military... South Korea gets attacked, ships sunk, missiles launched at it and they can't really afford to retaliate and cause an escalation to a full out war. Don't know if anyone has been to south Korea, but it's tiny. Only a short train ride of a few hours from the bottom of the country to the border. It's not North Korea that is Scary, it's the brother behind it....

Oh, kill them all and let god sort 'em out........

Actually, God, will sort it all out =)

Oh, I thought you meant the god who's followers have the biggest weapons.

Good God Almighty, what the hell are we talking about here!

Seems like it's a god d|ck comparing competition at this point.

My gods d1ck is bigger than your gods d1ck.

My gods Mustang is better than your gods Sportsman.

??

Winston I am not sure why you do not participate over on the shirt board, there is some great posts all about machine comparisons going on. Each post is specific to a component which makes it all more organized and to boot its all video! Other than that the site boasts more technical know how than anywhere else excluding m&r forums which is specific mostly to m&r machines.

Just want to point out tho this is the lounge do not be surprised about the type of off beat threads here it's the sand box away from the industry play ground for people to play in.

Winston you have a wealth of knowledge and history you really should contribute on the shirt board it's folks like you that bring out other gurus to participate as well.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the room where Winston, Rick Fuqua, Rich Hoffman, hell, even Robert Barnes and just listen for a few hours. The knowledge flowing between Winston, Rick and Rich would be something really awesome to tap into. I have a short list of industry guys that when they speak or write something, I go into "sponge mode" and soak up every bit of knowledge that I can, Winston is on that short list of guys.

If I ever win the giant powerball lottery, and if I get a couple hundred million dollars, it would be a dream of mine to purchase M&R, give Rich a hefty seven figure a year salary, hire Winston and Rick and pay them stupid money and just let those guys do what they do and ride the wave. Every year, we'd have our own convention somewhere in the middle of the country, invite all of the industry leaders and companies, competitors and all and let the screen printing shops all over come in and learn and see all the new equipment and test drive everything. We'd have all the presses up and running real jobs, people doing every single process and having customers get hands on experience with whatever tool or machine they are thinking about purchasing, it would be a giant screen printing field day.

I think most trade shows are great and I enjoy going to them all, but they could be so much more for everyone involved. I'd love it if I could go into the Kiwo booth, give them an art file, print it out on their I-jet II, on newman or shurloc frames, take those screens to the M&R booth, set up the 6 color job on a challenger III with the triloc, take whichever ink manufacturer's ink that wants in on this job and start printing. Run the job through the dryer and have some of the print gurus study the print when it's done and critique it for the customer and then give them ways that they could improve the quality of the print. Anyone who wanted to watch and learn would be welcome to tag along and follow the job the entire way through the process. That same job could then go through the same process but using a completely different DTS or inkjet film, different automatic press, registration system, inks, dryer, etc. Then the customer could get an absolute hands on comparison between products and would have so much more information to make a better decision for their business. The entry level customer would stick with entry level equipment and those of us who are interested in DTS machines could get up close with that technology, it would be like screen printing heaven for me.

I know it could never happen like that, but it doesn't hurt to dream big and outlandish does it?

This reminds me of one of my favorite lyrics from my friend's new folk album.

From a song titled "Jesus"

"You can carry your cross,
but keep your cross off me,
Cause I ain't about to kneel for the things I've done."

Just in case anyone wants to buy the album or song (Track 5):
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/thespecklers