You know Robert, you act like getting the MHM micros back to ZERO is some incredibly hard feat.
But don't we all micro tune to "zero" every day with our screens? Of course this is also ONLY if you aren't balls on with your film application on the FPU. Which has been pointed out that DTS solves that issue. So even IF you have to adjust a head then all you really need to do is tune that one back into place (no unlocking of tuners on the MHM... does Mustang have that? Didn't think so)... this is something that most press ops are doing every day several times a day. So having to do it once in a blue moon isn't really that big of a deal. Think of the time saved not having to slide a jig in and out and spin that thing around to 16 plus stations. Whew... just not having to do all that crap one time around and you have enough time to zero out plenty of heads IF you actually ever need it.
Speaking of DTS, where is your DTS? Why are you still using films Mr. "I'm so technologically forward thinking" and "I'm pushing the screen industry forward"... hmm still using films? Well, hey, at least you aren't still cutting Rubylith by hand!
Clearly you don't understand what zero'ing the micro means on the MHM printhead ... when a system is reliant on printheads aligning within the print tolerance -then- you must have a system to zero each head -but- it isn't as simple as turning knobs to a zero on a dial (unless that dial was digital)
Submitted by ScreenShip on Mon, 09/10/2012 - 00:52
Not just this thread, but every forum and thread and video moving forward. Compare to others like Anatol and TAS and Schenk and sRoque and MHM and Lawson and brown and any others sold in the US in the same class. That also means you can stop comparing to machines bigger or smaller that wouldn't be relevant to the buyers size and budget or operational requirements.
Mike ... keep in mind the ideal Mustang buyer is the shop that bought into the M&R propaganda -and- already has one or two M&R presses ... so having an FPU has a tremendous benefit in reducing their production times on the M&R stuff as well :eek:
BUT ... I will start another thread about creating classes of machines
Submitted by ScreenShip on Tue, 09/11/2012 - 17:57
Re the MHM and re-zero-ing, some machines that have digital / electronic registration movement can easily be reset back to zero during the washup simply by doing (washup.reset) on control panel. Cant honestly say anything about MHM as I simply dont know but I would imagine it would be natural to be able to set machine zero and be able to reset to that point. Existing technology.
You can spin it any way you would like to but it was a mutual break up.they wanted more territory and we said we cannot do that to our current distributors. End of story.
Submitted by ScreenShip on Mon, 09/10/2012 - 01:24
Re the MHM and re-zero-ing, some machines that have digital / electronic registration movement can easily be reset back to zero during the washup simply by doing (washup.reset) on control panel. Cant honestly say anything about MHM as I simply dont know but I would imagine it would be natural to be able to set machine zero and be able to reset to that point. Existing technology.
The MHM 4000 with auto-reg does a nice job zero'ing with the motors -but- zero'ing any manual system without digital readout is never going to be easy unless they are pinned
To be fair Roberts sales per capita probably aren't that bad. If you took the MnR count and divided that globally by every agent, sales rep of every distributor etc across maybe a hundred countries then it's probably not that flash at all extrapolated out. It's just result off mass of sales force, both direct and indirect representation.
Hmm, that math isn't adding up.
If they only sold as many as Barnes sold then it would take 250 M&R sales agents to put out the numbers that M&R does.
As much as Barnes would like to try and say that is how it is all done I think it's another smoke and mirrors routine.
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Submitted by ScreenShip on Tue, 09/11/2012 - 18:45
You can spin it any way you would like to but it was a mutual break up.they wanted more territory and we said we cannot do that to our current distributors. End of story.
244 ... as the CEO of M&R Printing Equipment ... do you think more of the higher profile dealers will be following Ryonet's lead ??? was the breakup do to M&R selling more supplies online ??? if Ryonet becomes aggressive with sRoque how much will that take from the M&R market share worldwide ???
Note: you must be referring to international territory because it is illegal to limit territory in the USA ... right?
How do the current M&R dealers feel when M&R sells direct ??? Selling around the dealer network must be irritating to them -and- now that M&R is doing online supply sales ... hmmm ... is this the new direction of M&R .... history repeats itself ... wasn't Advance / American a supply company as well ???
I know what "zero'ing" means. Even in my feeble, never having seen an MHM mind I can dream up a process to do this. Possibly mark a ZERO point on a Pallet... then you just dial in zero like if you were registering a job.
Everyone in this industry can register a job.
For that matter, technically next time you put a job on and say head 4 had to previously be adjusted... well then guess what head needs to be adjusted "back to zero" for the job to line up?
So you just go over to head 4 and line it up like you would if it was out of whack and Poof, you are back at ZERO and can go on printing all the rest of the days jobs.
Now, if you feel like that won't happen then this press operator you are talking about has more problems than you do and should probably do as you should and look for a new career.
Stop making mountains out of mole hills with the MHM zero'ing thing. It's simply not that complicated and just the time saved by not having to go around the entire press using a jig to snap frames in will be enough time to "zero" in that one job that some how the user screwed up on the FPU.
Which it could be argued that the same job would still take even longer on your press because the MHM's micros don't have to be locked down... so the time it takes to lock down your micros you could probably reregister back to "ZERO" on the next job and never miss a beat. Which means the time you waste going around with your pallet jig to set up all the jobs every day... well, it's just that... a waste!
MHM, lock and load!! You could have a monkey load and "register" a job on an MHM with about 2 mins of training. The same can't be said with your press Jig.
Nice to know, we use all static frames just had 16 280's and 305's come in 2 weeks ago, 12 popped within the first 5 days not to happy about it.
What tension is everyone running their statics at? We run 110's 156's 200's 230's 280's and 305's. The guy that stretches our's is all over the place and we probably should find someone else.
Submitted by ScreenShip on Tue, 09/11/2012 - 19:26
I have never recived a static over 20 and tried several vendors. In March we got 5 25x36 all 280 and they were between 15-17, last time I do that. I have had better luck with the panel frames. At least I can change panels when needed. Now we have been adding Newman's over the past few months, putting a few in rotation each month. Have streched with Shurloc panels and bulk but the jury is still out on what way we will be going.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Submitted by Prosperi-Tees on Tue, 09/18/2012 - 20:58
What is your initial and post printing tension of those panel frames?
When the panel goes in the first time I am getting 20-22. Last time I checked and honestly I have no idea how many imprints are on the screens but they seem to level out at 15-17 some a little lower some higher. I have 16 of them in rotation, 8 with 160 and the rest 180, keep 12 spare panels for each mesh size. We have had them for maybe a year and maybe changed four panels. IMO if we are getting a set of 4 panel frames and spare screens for the price of having statics stretched including shipping. Getting the same tensions, then buying a box of spare panels for half the price of the statics and being able to snap a new panel in min its a no brainer.
I decided last year that we would have three "Classes" of screens in the shop.
1. Newman's we can keep tight good mesh in. Use for detail work.
2. Statics and panel we do everyday jobs on, spot color, easy reg, etc.
3. "S" (****) screens, all statics we keep running until they are no longer usable then replace with more Newman's or panel, there are plenty of jobs we can run on softer screens or ones with holes.
Actually I do believe there are a few members here who run large production numbers that have the panel frames and after a job is done they just toss to screen and insert a new one.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Submitted by Prosperi-Tees on Tue, 09/18/2012 - 21:51
Your last sentence their is what I have been debating for a long time! I think getting rid of the reclaim portion of the process could be a Huge time and money saver. A replacement panel is in the $12-14 range and if you are charging screen fees, it almost seems like a no brainer to me, especially a 1 man shop with limited space.
I have never recived a static over 20 and tried several vendors. In March we got 5 25x36 all 280 and they were between 15-17, last time I do that. I have had better luck with the panel frames. At least I can change panels when needed. Now we have been adding Newman's over the past few months, putting a few in rotation each month. Have streched with Shurloc panels and bulk but the jury is still out on what way we will be going.
I personally feel statics get a bad rap because most people send them out to be redone. When this is done you are at the mercy of the person stretching. I know for a fact that my guy doesn't let the mesh relax for more than a minute before glue. Also most use a quick set glue which is also junk. We cycle roughly 150 screens through the shop and the ones I have the best luck with were stretched 4 years ago and have I believe the red Kiwo glue.
Are the panels that much better or is it just the ability to snap some mesh in within a minute?
Nice to know, we use all static frames just had 16 280's and 305's come in 2 weeks ago, 12 popped within the first 5 days not to happy about it.
What tension is everyone running their statics at? We run 110's 156's 200's 230's 280's and 305's. The guy that stretches our's is all over the place and we probably should find someone else.
I've bought several hundred statics from a half dozen sources and never had one over 21 newtons. Most were in the 12-15 newton range. Out of all of them, maybe 5-8% of them were over 17 and under 21. We no longer use statics for most everyday stuff, Newman rollers and shurloc ez frames do 99% of our work.
Highly doubt the last part of this video!! Like M&R wouldn't sell a press to someone if they were not ready for one B/S. Pretty sure there was a press on here last month with little to no impressions that someone obviously didn't really need. Holy crap is this place turning into a Sh*t Show.
Highly doubt the last part of this video!! Like M&R wouldn't sell a press to someone if they were not ready for one B/S. Pretty sure there was a press on here last month with little to no impressions that someone obviously didn't really need. Holy crap is this place turning into a Sh*t Show.
The one you reference was due to a divorce from what I understand. The person I was referring to is real and active on some of these forums whether you think it is bs or not.
There is a place here in Florida called Melray, they actually stretch a static to about 50, after a few uses and reclaims they hold at about 20-25, never seen any static hold more than 30 after use though. Now that we have the roller master we are able to go back and re-tension and keep everything at a steady 50 and it's making a huuuuuuuuuge difference, especially on 8 color wet on wet prints, major difference. The only thing I love about a static frame is how light they are, but I can deal with the weight of a roller frame for better printing results =)
The one you reference was due to a divorce from what I understand. The person I was referring to is real and active on some of these forums whether you think it is bs or not.
So if someone buys a machine, from say a trade show and later you find out they have no idea how to print then what do you do? I know I'm taking this way out of context but hay what the hell, seems to happen every day on this forum. Let me remind you Rich that you liked a post that said, you hoped my business fails and we are up 700% from this time last year. Not a hater of your equipment but I bought and RPM because of your statement and haven't looked back.
I know what "zero'ing" means. Even in my feeble, never having seen an MHM mind I can dream up a process to do this. Possibly mark a ZERO point on a Pallet... then you just dial in zero like if you were registering a job.
Everyone in this industry can register a job.
For that matter, technically next time you put a job on and say head 4 had to previously be adjusted... well then guess what head needs to be adjusted "back to zero" for the job to line up?
So you just go over to head 4 and line it up like you would if it was out of whack and Poof, you are back at ZERO and can go on printing all the rest of the days jobs.
Now, if you feel like that won't happen then this press operator you are talking about has more problems than you do and should probably do as you should and look for a new career.
Stop making mountains out of mole hills with the MHM zero'ing thing. It's simply not that complicated and just the time saved by not having to go around the entire press using a jig to snap frames in will be enough time to "zero" in that one job that some how the user screwed up on the FPU.
Which it could be argued that the same job would still take even longer on your press because the MHM's micros don't have to be locked down... so the time it takes to lock down your micros you could probably reregister back to "ZERO" on the next job and never miss a beat. Which means the time you waste going around with your pallet jig to set up all the jobs every day... well, it's just that... a waste!
MHM, lock and load!! You could have a monkey load and "register" a job on an MHM with about 2 mins of training. The same can't be said with your press Jig.
Gilligan ... you are 100% right ... I stand corrected ... we will mark this day down as a day where RWB decides to not reply and let you win !!!
Note: once we habe the FPU and Press JIG we will make a video for you to compare and we can continue this then ... ok?
Submitted by Printwizard on Sat, 09/15/2012 - 23:47
The one you reference was due to a divorce from what I understand. The person I was referring to is real and active on some of these forums whether you think it is bs or not.
Getting Divorced from MnR. I recall 244 popping on and saying something like it was too small to sell basically not that greater a spec machine, trying to step on the parade, ruin the sale and try selling someone a new and bigger machine instead.......:eek:
Gilligan ... you are 100% right ... I stand corrected ... we will mark this day down as a day where RWB decides to not reply and let you win !!!
Note: once we habe the FPU and Press JIG we will make a video for you to compare and we can continue this then ... ok?
Note, that was a question, so I'm responding.
I want to see a video of a PRO MHM guy doing the comparison (at least on the MHM machine). Not your ho hum drone blasé way that you did the CHIII review. I want to see someone with the same "passion" you have for the new way demonstrating how it compares on the MHM.
TRUE apples to apples.
Also let that PRO MHM guy say how many times he actually has to micro register the screen once on press. I mean, what is the point of any of this if it only happens 1% of the time.
You are constantly the guy saying that we need to push screen printing forwards, I'm just trying to do my part. MHM has done that... did it over 15 years ago and is continuing on and not looking back.
Getting Divorced from MnR. I recall 244 popping on and saying something like it was too small to sell basically not that greater a spec machine, trying to step on the parade, ruin the sale and try selling someone a new and bigger machine instead.......:eek:
Whatever it is I smell B/S like everyone trying to make a buck. I give mad props to a company like M&R for staying afloat through the last 4 years. Even if half of their patents are bought and the other half are so vague, that I'm surprised they hold up in court.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Clearly you don't understand what zero'ing the micro means on the MHM printhead ... when a system is reliant on printheads aligning within the print tolerance -then- you must have a system to zero each head -but- it isn't as simple as turning knobs to a zero on a dial (unless that dial was digital)
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Mike ... keep in mind the ideal Mustang buyer is the shop that bought into the M&R propaganda -and- already has one or two M&R presses ... so having an FPU has a tremendous benefit in reducing their production times on the M&R stuff as well :eek:
BUT ... I will start another thread about creating classes of machines
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Do you think Ryonet dumped M&R because of M&R getting into the supply busines ???
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Re the MHM and re-zero-ing, some machines that have digital / electronic registration movement can easily be reset back to zero during the washup simply by doing (washup.reset) on control panel. Cant honestly say anything about MHM as I simply dont know but I would imagine it would be natural to be able to set machine zero and be able to reset to that point. Existing technology.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
The MHM 4000 with auto-reg does a nice job zero'ing with the motors -but- zero'ing any manual system without digital readout is never going to be easy unless they are pinned
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Hmm, that math isn't adding up.
If they only sold as many as Barnes sold then it would take 250 M&R sales agents to put out the numbers that M&R does.
As much as Barnes would like to try and say that is how it is all done I think it's another smoke and mirrors routine.
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
244 ... as the CEO of M&R Printing Equipment ... do you think more of the higher profile dealers will be following Ryonet's lead ??? was the breakup do to M&R selling more supplies online ??? if Ryonet becomes aggressive with sRoque how much will that take from the M&R market share worldwide ???
Note: you must be referring to international territory because it is illegal to limit territory in the USA ... right?
How do the current M&R dealers feel when M&R sells direct ??? Selling around the dealer network must be irritating to them -and- now that M&R is doing online supply sales ... hmmm ... is this the new direction of M&R .... history repeats itself ... wasn't Advance / American a supply company as well ???
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Robert Barnes CEO of nothing... Get a job.
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Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
LOL.... Barnes, you really are an idiot.
I know what "zero'ing" means. Even in my feeble, never having seen an MHM mind I can dream up a process to do this. Possibly mark a ZERO point on a Pallet... then you just dial in zero like if you were registering a job.
Everyone in this industry can register a job.
For that matter, technically next time you put a job on and say head 4 had to previously be adjusted... well then guess what head needs to be adjusted "back to zero" for the job to line up?
So you just go over to head 4 and line it up like you would if it was out of whack and Poof, you are back at ZERO and can go on printing all the rest of the days jobs.
Now, if you feel like that won't happen then this press operator you are talking about has more problems than you do and should probably do as you should and look for a new career.
Stop making mountains out of mole hills with the MHM zero'ing thing. It's simply not that complicated and just the time saved by not having to go around the entire press using a jig to snap frames in will be enough time to "zero" in that one job that some how the user screwed up on the FPU.
Which it could be argued that the same job would still take even longer on your press because the MHM's micros don't have to be locked down... so the time it takes to lock down your micros you could probably reregister back to "ZERO" on the next job and never miss a beat. Which means the time you waste going around with your pallet jig to set up all the jobs every day... well, it's just that... a waste!
MHM, lock and load!! You could have a monkey load and "register" a job on an MHM with about 2 mins of training. The same can't be said with your press Jig.
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Nice to know, we use all static frames just had 16 280's and 305's come in 2 weeks ago, 12 popped within the first 5 days not to happy about it.
What tension is everyone running their statics at? We run 110's 156's 200's 230's 280's and 305's. The guy that stretches our's is all over the place and we probably should find someone else.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
excuse me Ma'am -but- your slip is showing out the bottom of your Blue Dress LOL
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
I have never recived a static over 20 and tried several vendors. In March we got 5 25x36 all 280 and they were between 15-17, last time I do that. I have had better luck with the panel frames. At least I can change panels when needed. Now we have been adding Newman's over the past few months, putting a few in rotation each month. Have streched with Shurloc panels and bulk but the jury is still out on what way we will be going.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
What is your initial and post printing tension of those panel frames?
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
When the panel goes in the first time I am getting 20-22. Last time I checked and honestly I have no idea how many imprints are on the screens but they seem to level out at 15-17 some a little lower some higher. I have 16 of them in rotation, 8 with 160 and the rest 180, keep 12 spare panels for each mesh size. We have had them for maybe a year and maybe changed four panels. IMO if we are getting a set of 4 panel frames and spare screens for the price of having statics stretched including shipping. Getting the same tensions, then buying a box of spare panels for half the price of the statics and being able to snap a new panel in min its a no brainer.
I decided last year that we would have three "Classes" of screens in the shop.
1. Newman's we can keep tight good mesh in. Use for detail work.
2. Statics and panel we do everyday jobs on, spot color, easy reg, etc.
3. "S" (****) screens, all statics we keep running until they are no longer usable then replace with more Newman's or panel, there are plenty of jobs we can run on softer screens or ones with holes.
Actually I do believe there are a few members here who run large production numbers that have the panel frames and after a job is done they just toss to screen and insert a new one.
Owner/Operator of Middletownink
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Your last sentence their is what I have been debating for a long time! I think getting rid of the reclaim portion of the process could be a Huge time and money saver. A replacement panel is in the $12-14 range and if you are charging screen fees, it almost seems like a no brainer to me, especially a 1 man shop with limited space.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
I personally feel statics get a bad rap because most people send them out to be redone. When this is done you are at the mercy of the person stretching. I know for a fact that my guy doesn't let the mesh relax for more than a minute before glue. Also most use a quick set glue which is also junk. We cycle roughly 150 screens through the shop and the ones I have the best luck with were stretched 4 years ago and have I believe the red Kiwo glue.
Are the panels that much better or is it just the ability to snap some mesh in within a minute?
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
I've bought several hundred statics from a half dozen sources and never had one over 21 newtons. Most were in the 12-15 newton range. Out of all of them, maybe 5-8% of them were over 17 and under 21. We no longer use statics for most everyday stuff, Newman rollers and shurloc ez frames do 99% of our work.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
That's decade and a HALF actually there Squeegee! ;)
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Highly doubt the last part of this video!! Like M&R wouldn't sell a press to someone if they were not ready for one B/S. Pretty sure there was a press on here last month with little to no impressions that someone obviously didn't really need. Holy crap is this place turning into a Sh*t Show.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
They needed to upsize was my understanding.
That video didn't say they make sure that you get the exact match for your business. He said if it doesn't seem like you are READY for an auto.
Still he wasn't coming look at my prints and was ready to sell me a press. *shrug*
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
The one you reference was due to a divorce from what I understand. The person I was referring to is real and active on some of these forums whether you think it is bs or not.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
There is a place here in Florida called Melray, they actually stretch a static to about 50, after a few uses and reclaims they hold at about 20-25, never seen any static hold more than 30 after use though. Now that we have the roller master we are able to go back and re-tension and keep everything at a steady 50 and it's making a huuuuuuuuuge difference, especially on 8 color wet on wet prints, major difference. The only thing I love about a static frame is how light they are, but I can deal with the weight of a roller frame for better printing results =)
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
So if someone buys a machine, from say a trade show and later you find out they have no idea how to print then what do you do? I know I'm taking this way out of context but hay what the hell, seems to happen every day on this forum. Let me remind you Rich that you liked a post that said, you hoped my business fails and we are up 700% from this time last year. Not a hater of your equipment but I bought and RPM because of your statement and haven't looked back.
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Really?
Can it keep up with the CHIII?
2010 World Speed Record Set on Challenger III - YouTube
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Gilligan ... you are 100% right ... I stand corrected ... we will mark this day down as a day where RWB decides to not reply and let you win !!!
Note: once we habe the FPU and Press JIG we will make a video for you to compare and we can continue this then ... ok?
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Getting Divorced from MnR. I recall 244 popping on and saying something like it was too small to sell basically not that greater a spec machine, trying to step on the parade, ruin the sale and try selling someone a new and bigger machine instead.......:eek:
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Note, that was a question, so I'm responding.
I want to see a video of a PRO MHM guy doing the comparison (at least on the MHM machine). Not your ho hum drone blasé way that you did the CHIII review. I want to see someone with the same "passion" you have for the new way demonstrating how it compares on the MHM.
TRUE apples to apples.
Also let that PRO MHM guy say how many times he actually has to micro register the screen once on press. I mean, what is the point of any of this if it only happens 1% of the time.
You are constantly the guy saying that we need to push screen printing forwards, I'm just trying to do my part. MHM has done that... did it over 15 years ago and is continuing on and not looking back.
"you don't need a hook for the worms to dance."
Re: Robert Barnes from Spider Machines - Modern Technology -vs-
Whatever it is I smell B/S like everyone trying to make a buck. I give mad props to a company like M&R for staying afloat through the last 4 years. Even if half of their patents are bought and the other half are so vague, that I'm surprised they hold up in court.
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