Digitizers as Storage?

Robert Young's picture

So a client has threatened legal action because we no longer have their files available to them on our website as we closed their acct for non payment. Yet every one of their designs they used to successfully complete orders. So at some point they downloaded the files and used them. Are we as digitizers also being paid to store clients' files? :confused:

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

Robert Young's picture

what are your thoughts? you contract a digitizer.. they provide you with the file, you run the job... months later you come to them to retrieve the file? years later? what do you feel is the appropriate time for your digitizer to store your design after you have run your initial job successfully? To me.. my job is to see you through the job on hand when you ordered.. but 10 years later? really???? what is YOUR limit as to what you expect? seriously.. most of my clients have not been around 10 years.. we are fortunate to have 24

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

minimalist's picture

Now you've done it. Stop emulating the latest adobe idea. Cloud services where you don't buy the software but pay a monthly fee to use it. If you don't pay, your work is floating up in the cloud with no access to it.

I see an opportunity here....a land based program called blackhawk to fly into the cloud and deploy HRA (hostage rescue app) to take your data back by force.

Legal action, for what? Let them try that one in court. I wouldn't offer any online storage for files. Too many problems with servers and hacking. Let the customer store their files. If by chance a customer has a complete crash then maybe offer a service to send a hard copy of the files by dvd or flash drive for a minimal fee based upon how good a customer they are?

Most ASI suppliers we deal with have stipulations about storing art. Usually its one or two years anything after that get trashed. They are not obligated to store it nor are you. When they purchased your services and downloaded the file it is then theirs. If they lose it then boo hoooo. If I lose the title to my vehicle the DMV does not send one to me for free I have to pay for it because they have to regenerate it and mail it. Same with you, if your client loses the file you have to regenerate it and that is time and money.

BTW I would assume they are bluffing you with the legal BS to get you to back off on collecting.

Robert Young's picture

For years we have used RackSpace managed hosting, they back up our files 2 times a day.. and we have hardware and software firewalls... but it runs us about $1000.00 per month... however that insures that our clients in good standing do not have to worry as their files are secure and available. ( remember we are saving over 208,000 designs at this point! with quite a few more on prehistoric memory storage devices.. lol ...) But when we have a client that has not used us in 6 plus months or owes us money I feel the ability to access those past files takes a different turn in each case.

I agree with Steve as well... with the affordability of cloud storage our clients should also take advantage of that as well.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

AS an embroiderer, I wouldn't expect a digitizer to hold onto my files for even a month after he/she completes the digitizing job. Storage of digitized designs, is the embroiderer's responsibility.

SunEmbroidery's picture

Digitizers should not be expected to store customer files. That's interesting about the storage time for artwork for ASI suppliers. I'm wondering how long most embroiderers keep digitized files and thread color information. We've been in business for 13 years and our storage is becoming increasingly limited. We have a file for every job but many jobs aren't repeated so there's a lot of space be wasted to store information that may not be used again. It's tempting to thin out some of the older jobs but every now and then a customer who hasn't ordered in a few years resurfaces. Would you expect them to pay to have their artwork digitized for the second time when they aren't expected to store their digitized file?

Robert Young's picture

so last week a client wanted to know why a design we did for them before we created our website.. so 2003, was not available to them ON OUR WEBSITE. Now this client ordered 6 designs from us in all of 2013... and they are requesting a design be available to them OR redone for free from 2003?
Luckily we had it on Zip storage devices (anyone remember them?? LOL) but really, we do a design and it is a one hit wonder... we make our 20, 30 , 40 bucks one time... they get to use it for every order, hats, shirts, etc... forever! their income potential is ongoing... WE get 1 time. yet we are supposed to store it? heck, they are lucky we are still around! Just my opinion but it happens every month! what do you think?

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

Interesting thread, i do not provide sewout because it cost me more. Due to flat price of $10 per design, providing sew out is not possible. but i wonder when some client says they will give business only if digitizer do sew outs, in that case what options u have

Steve
Embroidery Digitizier and Color Separation
20 Years Experience
(Price : 10 USD Flat OR 1.5 USD/1000 Stitches)
First Two designs Free to Try
gnizitigid@gmail.com

My last reply by mistake!

I never store files of clients, as soon design delivered, i delete those mostly

Steve
Embroidery Digitizier and Color Separation
20 Years Experience
(Price : 10 USD Flat OR 1.5 USD/1000 Stitches)
First Two designs Free to Try
gnizitigid@gmail.com

In actual i never faced such problems, only once one client came asking to send him all the designs done in previous year because he got his PC crashed

Steve
Embroidery Digitizier and Color Separation
20 Years Experience
(Price : 10 USD Flat OR 1.5 USD/1000 Stitches)
First Two designs Free to Try
gnizitigid@gmail.com

Robert Young's picture

this morning a client that has not ordered from us in 23 months sent in a request for the master outline file for a design done in 2007. I advised that would run a $25 fee, they responded that they would never use us again!.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

AJST's picture

If you have a client coming to you asking for a design the chances are he is going to have his work done by another company anyhow. I wouldn't worry too much about him using you again, especially if he is squawking about $25.

- I don't know if this is legally accurate but I was told that if you charge your client a DIGITIZING FEE, the client owns the design. If you charge your client a SETUP FEE, you own the design. Legal verbiage for the same work???
- Are you legally required to store a clients design?
- If so, for how long?
- Transfer fee?
All of this sounds like fine fodder for that stuff they put in small print at the end of a contract.

Post the policy on your website and set your own rules.

AJ’s Stitchin’ Time
Dennis Wilson
Embroidery Machine Technician
ajstitch.com Dennis@ajstitch.com
Robert Young's picture

zombie thread!

but I thought I would revive it as the questions and issues still apply today.

Client recently sold their business... new owner apparently thought we were their storage for all the digitized files. Problem is the old client's account was locked for non payment... 3 invoices from 2016 were never paid so we shut them down. I told the new owner that if they paid the $275.00 owed then the account would be reopened. Without that payment we will not allow access to the previous client's library of over 600 designs.

Sorry. Did previous client not store them? Guess they were going through some financial issues hence the sale to another... but what are your thoughts? Account locked for non payment.

Or should only the designs that were not paid for be off limits? (I don't think this is OK)

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

the way i think about this: if the design has been paid for, then it belongs to the person who paid for it. whether its the embroiderer, or their customer. so....if the previous owner of the business paid for the designs, and you've been authorized by them to turn them over to the new owner, i would. on the designs that have not been paid for...they belong to you. not the previous owner. so if the new owner wanted any of those files, i would require payment for those particular designs. i had the exact same issue back in 1998 (i think), and that's what i did. worked out.

i can understand you wanting to be paid...but its not the new owner's fault that the previous stiffed you. it does seem like they should have stored the files that they had done and transferred them with the business.

personally, i still have on file, every design i've ever done. all 24,753 of them. they're only taking up 12.8G on my hard drive. i do NOT save the artwork tho, and i remove the artwork from the file when i save it. this helps a lot with the file size and space. it has come in handy many times. i had one customer (actually the same one that bought the business in 1998!), go through a flood and lost everything. there have been several computer crashes where files were lost, etc. often times, i'll have a customer that needs changes to designs that i did a year or more ago. sometimes changing a date, updating a tagline, etc. i'd much rather make the changes in my native format than their dst

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

This is more of a Terms & Conditions sort of thing.

If not written out its kind of up in the air. There are a lot of topics brought up, not only here but in the past.

1. Saveing/hanging onto files.
As a Digitizer or embroiderer you save the original files. There is always a lot of work that goes into them and redoing work is never cost effective. Whether with a large external Drive or what have you large storage is cheap and native files are tiny. (plus I often go back and look at things and go "how did I do that last time" for more complex/creative artworks)

However saving artwork is an internal matter, I as both only guarantee/will remake a file for a client if they have purchased/used us within two years... if they haven't there is no guarantee (hard drive failures and software changes ect.) Even if you DO have it, You should charge a fee for them to get it back at that point.

2. Your current problem.
Ultimately you are pretty much in the right to ask for the remaining balance but if you want them as a client for the future you might want to work out a deal, option. As for what to do in the future...
Currently It depeneds what your terms and conditions are for the website/accounts and file storage. If you are not doing it as a paid subscription service than it is a courtesy in good faith to even have downloadable files, (I mean im sure monetarily it saves you tons of time and money emailing files back and forward so its more for your connivance than anyone elses but its still the specified t&c need to be clear for some of that.

So specifying that We do not guarantee the storage, or backing up of files or replacement in the event of "an act of God" in which the files are lost, beyond 1 month of payment, ect. It is the end user responsibility for their files.
Then Specifying in the terms and conditions that, Failure to pay on any invoice will revoke access to an account until payment is received is pretty standard but usually has to be specified before hand.

Robert Young's picture

digidana wrote:
the way i think about this: if the design has been paid for, then it belongs to the person who paid for it.

I agree, we digitized it they paid for it.. THEY SHOULD STORE IT... it is theirs! Why are we considered the storage unit? Especially for not paid items?

Also How do I KNOW that the business was sold? might just be them trying to access the designs? might be a disgruntled employee that has moved to another company and is trying to make themselves look good by bringing 600 designs that are local?

Hey have had it happen.

My point is YOU PAY for a design IT IS YOURS... then store the friggin thing! You don't go buy shirts at a store and use them as a closet do you? What happens when a digitizer shuts down? dies? goes to another industry?

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

digidana wrote:
...and you've been authorized by them to turn them over to the new owner, i would.

that's why i said the above. i have a new customer that bought an embroidery business from an old customer and i had them send me authorization that it was ok to share the files.

i'm not saying that you HAVE to store the files, i'm saying that, personally, i choose to. its not a big deal for me to do so and its appreciated by my customers.

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

just want to point out....my customers DO store their own designs. i just serve as a back up in case they crash, etc. its not like every time they have to restitch a design, they come back to me for it. i serve as a BACK-UP. if they lose the file, etc...i have a copy. it also comes in handy when they come back a year later and want edits because the tagline has changed, or they want to add an anniversary banner, etc. its easier to work from the native file.

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

Robert Young's picture

We keep all our digitized master files as well. This client did receive their files.. they ran orders.. then chose not to pay us when the terms were due. BUT they DID have the files and DID complete their projects . Not my fault they did not keep a copy. Digitizers come and go each year so who in their right business mind would expect them to be storage forever?

You do not pay your digitizing fees we shut the account down. Period. (takes about 90 days to give them ample opportunity on net 30} I obviously do not think this is unfair.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

they shouldn't expect it. i'm not saying you should, i'm just saying i do. but if the design wasn't paid for, i wouldn't send it unless it was. i try to avoid the whole not being paid thing to begin with. prepay or create an account with a cc on file is how i roll. tho, i did get scammed out of about $740 worth of digitizing by an a$$hole a couple months ago. long story. very crooked british digitizer posing as sombody i trusted!

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

Robert Young's picture

wow, that sux.. been there we offer terms to anyone who asks... MOST honor those terms until such time as they start using another digitizer or go out of business. I have a client right now who keeps swearing the checks are in the mail... but even those checks would be considered net 60 lol. I believe they are good for it, fingers crossed, because they are going through some growing pains with a new buyout. Their account is still open for that reason even though they are into us about 1600.00.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

most people are pretty good about it. but this one...they were mad at me and a moderator of another list. they got banned because they freaked out and were cussing out the moderator on the list. so about a month after it happened...they created a gmail account using the moderator's name so i thought i was working for the moderator (that i trusted) and sent me a bunch of designs. the emails started to bounce and i pretty much knew right off the bat. but i started getting a hold of the companies that were named in the designs and it led back to them.

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

Robert Young's picture

so would you allow access of these files to the client who did not pay you? This goes back to this thread.

I have also contacted the end users a few times in my history... and more than once got business from it! (they liked going direct) After all the actual file is theirs since nothing was paid for and what use is it to me... I just email them the dst. Many have paid for it or another version of it.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com

right now...nobody has paid me for the files. so, they belong to me. so i can do whatever i want to with them. if somebody wanted one of the same designs done, yes, i would sell the one i have.

digitizing...since 1996. dixiedesigns.net

Robert Young's picture

zombie thread:

well with hurricanes in Texas, Florida and today Puerto Rico.

ANY of those clients... when they get back on their feet we would have NO problem sending them all of their previous designs. (although with internet they can access them on their own off our site. but just in case) like Digidana expressed earlier in this thread. Storage is no issue for anyone going through any personal calamity!

In fact we would have no problem offering free digitizing for a while to help them get back on their feet. Honestly it is the least we can do and if I knew how to help more I would.

Modern Embroidery Designer
volant-tech.com
volantfineart.com