Sporty-Tex Should we give it a go?

The biggest issue here is he is just a front man for the machines. He has no legal ties or obligation to the company so if there is an issue he can just walk away. He did this exact thing to Printex. Pushes the machines then we come to find out he has no ties other then the exclusive contract.

One option would be since it is a beta press is to get it for free for a specified period of time, say a year and then start paying a heavily discounted price based on performance, breakdowns,support etc etc.
I would figure beta presses should be put in for free for the feedback and frustration of things unknown.

On your mind seems made up to me. You are defensive.... Like your defending the choice. If that is what you want to do by all means go for it. And exactly what good info will you get from the Miami guy.... He is using them free as a favor for Barnes... You really think he's gonna be straight up? LOL. Have you seen the Playtex video with him. It looked like he was reading a script.

Seriously close your eyes if you like but don't be ****** off when you walk into a wall....

As I said before, I think this "new" machine is right up your alley!
It seems to be a good fit as you seem to have some knowlege and this
is not your first rodeo! Thats good! As for "brokers'', I would not trust them
either! Makes sense! That being said, I am glad you have chosen to deal with
the chinese directly, with out a "broker" because when "brokers" get involved
things seem to get stretched a bit, and sometimes "misunderstandings" are
known to occur! Another smart decision! And I must say that you are very
fortunate to have good relationships with local printers to help you, with any
period of time, in which you might be down. It seems you have followed this
machine for six months at least, so It seems to me you have done your
homework. I say Go For It!!!

I don't think I am alone in thinking you are being defensive. Your mind seems made up as I said.

Agreed, much like ignorance on forums.

Zing..... lol

You started a thread with a closed mind, don't be mad at me over it.

I am actually hopping you go with the China press.... Someone has to be the China presses Inkman or Jeff.

That's the climate of this forums. One person to blame for that.

Just out of curiosity, what are you flashing with on that Javelin?

What Winston said above makes more sense than any other post on this thread.

If you don't want to go with a "BROKER" than great... but guess what you are doing man. Think about it.

Think about this... I'm TOTALLY with you about how much you spend to get a "brand new" machine vs a used machine (and I know it's hard to find the right fit used). I get it VERY much.

BUT, here is the trick... when you end up in a position like Jeff.. what would you be willing to pay to get out of that position? When your back is against the wall because that "beta" machine isn't working and you can't get the "broker" that sold it to you to do squat about it and you have orders piling up that you are having to give to other printers and your employees are upset because the work in the shop has dried up... THEN how much would you pay to be out of that situation?

China makes some good products sure... but, ever been to Harbor Freight? They have some good stuff there too... amongst a LOT of crap!

BTW, for the record it does seem like you have your mind made up. You certainly haven't appreciated some of the people that are just trying to help you from making a potential mistake. Make a list of the pros and cons... how many things could go wrong vs what you are getting out of it. I have no doubt that you POSSIBLY will save some money... but that is the ONLY plus to this deal. Everything else is a HUGE potential negative!

Look at it another way, would you make an investment into a stock that showed these signs? Cheap, but shady with unsure reputation and outcome. Would you buy stock in a company that Robert started? That is essentially what you are doing. He just hasn't shown me or anyone else on this forum that he is really a guy to trust... even those that haven't had problems (yet) don't expect much from this guy... they have ALWAYS had a plan B if he drops the ball. I find that a sad situation where you have to plan for such a thing.

If I bought a Anatol today and they closed shop tomorrow... I'd be upset... but I really couldn't fault anyone. If I bought a chinese press from Barnes today and he pulled the same crap that he did on everyone else then I'd be upset and have no one to blame but myself.

Get the press for free, keep the jav setup just in case. That's what I would do.

Wow, seems to me that you came here to start a thread with a question, got 9 pages worth of "input" (not to mention a possible solution to your problem by Jeff offering you a 10 color, which you haven't publicly acknowledged interestingly) and didn't like any of the responses so now you're salty about it...

Like...how else can we help you bro? Please let us know, otherwise just go buy your won-ton lunch special and get ta printin'. You wanted to know if a beta machine was a good fit for you regardless of who is selling it. Let's talk about arrogance, ignorance, common sense and thread titles for a second. Perhaps if you didn't want to hear about Barnes, maybe you should've left that out your initial post? Maybe just allude to the fact that you have an opportunity to snag a beta machine but are worried if that's a good fit for your current setup? It's pretty ignorant, in my humble opinion, to come on this forum, ask such a question and then expect Barnes-less responses.

Don't get it twisted though rodeo master, I wish you the best just like everyone else. I just hope your "lawyer" sets you up with a post-trial period termination option in your "contract" so that you aren't forced into terms.

And if it's a flop you got some scrap for the recycle yard.

Well I was wondering if you might be using a FB, mainly because they are slow, with or without a screen in the head. A full coverage quartz or IR flash would speed you up for sure.

Oh so now you you have standards... You had your mind made up before you posted. You just wanted to stir the pot. I can print 1200 shirts a day with a Dback one operator. Thats only 6 hours 8 colors 1 flash. Guess you can do better then that. Please, your already a puppet and you don't even know or maybe you do.
Good Luck with the BS you stirred up. Play with the bees and you will get stung.

Well... I just have to say... you have quite a bit of options.

If you are printing 7k every 10 days (even if it's business days) and your jobs are sub 300 pcs then you should be making at LEAST 15k a month... Again... I know we don't know your situation but that's easy to make a payment or just save up and buy the Jeff way (CASH!)

That is EXACTLY what I would do. If you want to talk more candidly about your financial situation then feel free to PM me.

I would personally save up the money and buy a used press cash... I'd rather spend the money sending Alan or Brian where ever the press would be located and having them check it out for me and then shipping it across the country than to spend money on a *shrug* press especially the shipping across the world. How much do you really want to "gamble"... and to be honest... who really wants to gamble in BUSINESS. Risk vs reward... I wouldn't chance it personally.

Even if you got this thing for almost nothing... if it's a flop, well guess what you have a 16' diameter flop sitting in your shop taking up space. Now you got to either pull it apart (assuming you are allowed) and jam it in a corner still taking up plenty of space (too much space?) and get something else to keep up.

Why chance it? You KNOW you only have ONE phone that rings when things go wrong... what happens if he stops answering like he has done with other people? Why not buy from a place that will answer your calls everytime and get your problem resolved? I'm not talking about just M&R... ANY other established press manufacture. Hell, my buddy has/had a Brown Semi.. I've watched him call tech support and get a guy walking him through the problem IMMEDIATELY... if he ever needs parts they are on their way. He recently upgraded colors and to a full auto... guess what he bought? Another Brown... he had his share of problems with it but he was obviously satisfied with the customer service. Other people have spent 100k+ replacing machines that don't work or never arrived and don't get their calls returned. And no matter what, it's ALWAYS someone else's fault. No matter how much "BS" you think goes on... just look at it this way... HIS customers have these issues. They spent 10s to 100s of thousands with him only to have all these issues that he won't deal with... why? because M&R?! That is insane. There is ONE common denominator with Robert and that is Robert. You have to at least see that... he ALWAYS has someone to blame, EVERY time. Doesn't that get more old than the ad nausem of people that are just trying to warn you?!

Again... PM me if you want to get more candid about this discussion.

Hello eetherman!
If you by chance read my post, then you most surely understand my responses
were as " tongue-n-cheek" as I could be! They were not ment to condem your
descision, but rather to "jar" your thinking. I will honestly tell you my opinion
and you can do with it, what you would like. It is "gratis" with no strings
attached! Period. You have children, so I presume a family! You have NO
business being a "beta" location for ANY manufacturers press. Period! You
Do Not have the experience or the support to make it succesful for either party. I have been in the Biggest Rodeos in this industry, and have had my
share of being knock on my a$$,and some , where the price paid, was much to high! It is in this spirit, I am writing. This industry is filled with visions
of granduer! TANSTAAFL!!! There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Make all
major decisions with not only the Price, but also the Cost. Without both, a
poor decision can be FATAL to your business,and worse, your Family! Like
you said, we are only printing T-Shirts! It is easy when one does not have the funds to buy product "A" or "B" and product "C" makes it so easy. Be careful,
move slow, open your eyes "wide", think about how your decision will either
be the biggest "Blessing" or the biggest "Curse" to you and yours! I have no axe to grind with any parties, no matter what is said.
Good Luck!
winston

Chinese mfg sucks for the most part in my opinion. They steal and copy many ideas and try and duplicate them, problem is they dont take the time to understand what they are copying. There products look similar but dont perform over time. There are a few exceptions to this rule like the auto industry, after years of junk they are finally putting out some decent product. Something like a screen printing press they are not going to put much into because of the low quantity and margins. Here's an example - have you heard of Panel Frames, and do you know what happened with this good idea after the screens were farmed out to china, they cant even get a screen with four plastic extrusions correct.

The worst thing someone could do would be to trust their growing business to a machine that has not proved itself in a real world environment. We have all witnessed how this has already played out. Regardless of the brand or who is selling it, its just not a smart business move especially if you do not have the capitol to replace the potential boat anchor with what you should have purchased to begin with.

Eee... not really the case. I work for the oil field industry and they do a lot of big construction out there in the gulf. I hear salesmen all the time saying "not chinese metal here..." and I hear the bosses talking about complains about the chinese metal on things they buy.

They do NOT machine everything well... they have very poor QA and don't care if they send junk to the US. You say "Cost over quality always wins in America"... what exactly do you think you are basing your decision on? :confused:

Agreed, someone will put these in and make payments while they are happy as long as they are happy, if it's a dog stop the lease payment and machine is uplifted. I see as less risk for the buyer and only way a Chinese machine will get any kind of market footprint for the first decade till it's proven. In saying that, these will appeal to some, others not, but that's the only way anyone will ever find out.

Ya I mean I turn my press on a 2-3 days a week usually, and we do WAY more than 15k a month, so something just doesn't add up here to me. Doing those types of numbers you should be able to make your payment off a day or two running, where I come from that leaves you a lot of time to make profit. If you can run 28-29 days with 2 presses and you are unable to afford everything else in your overhead, I think you have larger problems.

With all due respect to manufacturers, but screen printing press not involving any rocket science, nuclear physics stuff, not even Mag Lev technology. However, Chinese companies already successfully built all these products, machinery or plants... Don't judge quality of Chinese products by usual consumers products you are buying in US. Mark my words, if there is some serious Chinese company wanting to manufacture a really high end screen printing press, they will start making it in no time. Probably after year or two of developing and testing. Will they use other manufacturers experience? You bet. Will they copy some good parts of design? Sure. Do they have technology and highly educated engineers to make some parts of the design even better than we are seeing now? More than you think.

Some other things are more important and that's what makes one printing equipment manufacturer better than the others: experience, vision, world wide customer service, constant innovations based on customers feedback, etc...

Some 150 years ago, US Transcontinental railroad in the California and Nevada was made with American technology and Chinese immigrant workers. Last year, preliminary agreement has been signed with China about building of new, modern high speed rail in California. It will involve Chinese technology and American workers.

I think it's safe to say no matter how well or not it "may" be built. It is currently 100% speculation. What ISN'T speculation is who you are dealing with to do business with them (Robert) and physical location of the manufacture (China, a ocean away and easy to turn their back on you). See Playtex for example of this.

Let's not forget he pimped the Playtex as end all be all. Now he either believed that, or was lying to us all to try to get money. If he believed that it shows he is a lot dumber about machines than we all thought (or maybe not actually). If he was just about money then well what makes you think any of this is any different?

I guess I've just been unfortunate in the chinese stuff I've seen. I've seen engine hoist and stands (have some) and all sorts of other "industrial" type of things and it's quite obvious when it's chinese junk.

Look at heat presses or cutters... all inferior... but hey, they come in cheap and have no real warranty.... knock yourself out right? What could go wrong. And guess what, some people get lucky... most don't. They prey on "new" customers to make their money... Like PT Barnum never said, "there's a sucker born every minute". That's who they sell to. It's not on repeat business like other established companies.

Not Chinese but how many people are ordering their 2nd set of printex presses? Once bitten twice shy. And these are the presses they are "copying"?!

I'd kind of be concerned about a manufacture that is copying an unproven design, especially one that is showing signs of failure (see Jeff's TWO presses!) If you are smart you stick to the basics and get it down right before you SLOWLY add... then again, we've seen this "push" for "new" technology by another press manufacture... common denominator there btw.

I agree with your post! We can no longer paint China with such a broad
brush! The same as here, different manufacturers produce many different
machines, with different quality standards! I think some on this board, as well
as other boards, are VERY cautious, with the Messenger of this new brand!
Time will tell.. The tone of the poster, from the begining of the post, in my
opinion, was a little skewed. I also read previous post, which reinforces my
thoughts. I also veiwed this, as a perceived opportunity to obtain a product
with little money, and few strings attached! It does not work that way! A machine manufacturer will sometimes place machines, in certain
shops, for "try it, you like it, you buy it" sales. Rare but it is done. An automatic printer is not "rocket science" however, it is a complex automated
machine, with many parts, and should be veiwed that way. I would not ever
put a "beta" machine,of ANY brand in a shop, that does not have a person
or persons who "on a high level" understand, the total functions and capabilities of the "beta" machine. This is Very Rare! Example: Printex got
Luckey, nothing else, with "Binkspot" (Brian) and his purchase. I can only
imagine, what if no Brian? I feel the printer is being "flattered" with this chance, which could very well be his "noose". I could be wrong, but my gut says I am not. Even a "pig" thinks his owner is being so nice , by feeding
him so much, but the owners interest is only the pig's weight at slaughter
time. If the "new machine" company had a "positive" track record, then I would say, OK. Again my opinion! Does the machine come with Rosetta Stone?

winston

I am with Winston the OP has no business beta testing a machine with such a dubious back ground to boot. It makes no sense at all, Miami can do it because they have multiple machines on the floor and some serious hard earned auto experience to evaluate and repair if necessary the beta machines.

What gets me is that Barnes would even entertain putting a beta machine in a shop like the OP's, it is not sound at all, only thing I can think of is because the OP is supporting Robert on this site and Robert always gravitates towards supporters but that happened with Jeff and now look where that has led!

Not patting my self on the back but when we first got our press and the head boards started popping I added the resistors (40 of the little suckers) to them myself. Guys that would do that are few and far between. Or when the power distribution board shorted, not many guys would be able to trouble shoot it let alone have enough stuff lying around (non Printex parts, none in the spare parts kit latterly stuff I had around the house) to build a new one from scratch. I had to, there there were no parts available here and like hell if I was going to wait for Poland to send a new one. They actually did eventually send one (asked for 2 or 3) but needed that one to fix another so mine is still working.

Robert don't give a damn about where the beta machines go, obviously. I agree with everyone in that the beta needs to be put in a serious, multiple 4-6+ autos shop with preferably more than one mechanically inclined person who is used to working on screen printing machines. Ideal situation would be a shop like tees to plees with 10 older M&Rs, a beta printex and two beta sportsman copies. They will be impacted by a down machine, but those who were running the machine can go to other areas and help speed up production to the point where it would likely be as much or more than having that extra auto running.

E'man, if you are to the point where you actually need 1.5 machines and not really 2, then you could make up any down time by working 12 hour shifts, but if you have the work to fill 2 autos and one goes down, good luck to ya. And do not count on your competitors whom you are buddies with, they may be slammed and fitting in 2 jobs of yours isn't going to happen. No matter how good of friends you are, their jobs will come first.

Now, when it comes to "if" the machine breaks down, who is going to get you back up and running. It will likely be YOU, so if YOU are ready to take on that kind of commitment to a machine that you don't know anything about then by all means, get after it. I think we have all seen the type of support that has been given to the Printex machines, and you better get the hell back if you have anything negative to say about the machine, you'll likely have a paper weight on your hands. That puts you in a tough situation where you can't tell the truth about the machine because of the unstable guy that is the only person you have to get you what you need. If the servo breaks the capture fork, what are you going to do? Remember it took over a week for the shop in Lubbock to get their Prism going, maybe it was two weeks? If you can afford to have one machine down for a week, maybe two, then you might want to look into it.

Its not so much if the machine breaks down, sling the job over the Javelin. What if its a 8 color job, then your stuck relying on someone else plus the breakdown of the job, moving the garments and hoping someone else can fit the job in.

Just saying.

Words Of Wisdom from One Smart Dude!!!

Binkspot ! My hat is off to you also.
Their are VERY FEW techs in the industry,
that understand any machine at the sub
conponit level.Printex is VERY lucky!

winston

WAS very lucky you mean.

I would welcome a Sporty-Tex in my shop as we are preparing for a shop expansion soon but to be honest I would want the machine on my floor and running before any moneys were wired or exchanged hands. Any issues with money money like the others have experienced would certainly cripple me as I dont have the kind of cash flow that some have.

On another note eetherman I also run a 6/8 javelin. Would you mind sharing some pics with me? Particulary the setting for the squeegee/flood? It seems I cant get it just right, either my flood is to light and print is to heavy or my flood is heavy and print to heavy, I cant seem to find a happy medium. If you could help it would be really appreciated.

I will have to measure tomorrow at the shop. Are you thinking I should lower the hangers?

I will sell you a printex 10 color cheap!
Do not get ride of that Javelin if you have room for 2 presses , it is a good press and would make a nice 2nd one! We doubled in size in one year and were running 4 auto's, not at the same time usally but it was nice to leave kid boards on or sleeve boards. When you have one auto and there is a problem, you will realize how much manual printing sucks. Keeping the Javelin would be a smart move even after you buy another press, you can always sell the Javelin later those presses sell fast and Phil at Workhorse is a great guy.

I was also debating when I expand to keep the Jav around. I would have enough room for it, I just wouldn't have enough dryer capacity to run both.

If you have read all that has been written about all the happy customers
out there in printland, and you EVEN have the thought, about this purchase,
then by all means, YOU are the perfect candidate! Congratulations! I Really
Mean It!.I thought I have seen it all !!!!!!
Is that positive enough?